Buying a boat without seeing the sails?

[CaptainBob]

I'm in the "under offer" stage of buying a boat. Have booked in the survey. I've asked the vendor to ensure that the sails are aboard the vessel at the time of survey, and he has declined. He is saying that the sails are held with a reputable sail cleaning company, and has provided us with a recent(ish) report on the state of those sails, and therefore that he does not want to make them available to our surveyor because he fears that our surveyor will cause them to become dirty when/if he lays them out for inspection in the yard in which the vessel is lying.

Should we insist on seeing the sails before moving forward with the purchase?

Or accept the very positive "report" from the sail handling company?

Vendor has given us the handling company's contact details and given us clearance to contact them directly for further information - which I've yet to do.

Thoughts? Is this a very normal situation?

 

[Sandy]

I won't buy a car without looking at the engine; won't buy a boat without looking at 'engine'

 

[Twister_Ken]

Seems fair enough to me. You could always make your offer conditional on the sails being in good condition.

 

[pvb]

Just get the vendor to put in writing that the sails are in good condition. If they turn out not to be, you can claim from him.

 

[Csail]

Knock 2 grand off asking price until sails do turn up.

 

[geoid96]

Just get the vendor to put in writing that the sails are in good condition. If they turn out not to be, you can claim from him.

But a description of sails as being in "good condition" is very subjective.

 

[hisw]

Whats good condition? Its very subjective, one mans good condition is another mans old sails. I had the same problem when I purchased a boat. Was told the sails were in good condition but once the transaction had gone though and I got the sails. They were not what I would call good condition. But the previous owner thought they were. I would suggest you see them on the boat, rigged.

 

[pvb]

It's a second-hand boat; you can't reasonably expect new sails. You could reasonably expect the sails to be in "good condition", ie clean, able to be used, not baggy, not needing immediate repairs, etc. Certainly it's subjective - but so would be a surveyor's report.

 

[Quandary]

Seems odd that the sails can not be inspected where they are stored, if the sails are not available for inspection I think I would exclude them from my offer. You can then enter negotiations to purchase them when you have been given the opportunity to inspect.
But the only way to effectively check sails is to put them to use and that is a big part of a test sail which you are not getting, so just going to look at them will only tell you or your surveyor if they are tidy but not if they are useful.
However if the seller routinely has them laundered and stored in the winter it is an indicator that he thinks they are worth looking after.

 

[Evadne]

There's a world of difference between "good condition" 35 year old Dacron and 2 year old Mylar laminate. A description of the sails, including age would be more informative on the vendors part.

 

[penfold]

I'm in the "under offer" stage of buying a boat. Have booked in the survey. I've asked the vendor to ensure that the sails are aboard the vessel at the time of survey, and he has declined. He is saying that the sails are held with a reputable sail cleaning company, and has provided us with a recent(ish) report on the state of those sails, and therefore that he does not want to make them available to our surveyor because he fears that our surveyor will cause them to become dirty when/if he lays them out for inspection in the yard in which the vessel is lying.

Should we insist on seeing the sails before moving forward with the purchase?

Or accept the very positive "report" from the sail handling company?

Vendor has given us the handling company's contact details and given us clearance to contact them directly for further information - which I've yet to do.

Thoughts? Is this a very normal situation?

I would want to see them at the storage company; if they require a fee for laying them out for inspection so be it, but I would not proceed with a purchase without seeing them(or offering on the boat on the basis of the sails needing replaced). A suit of sails for a 30'er is £3k+ these days even for cruising cloth.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Interesting problem. I would want to see any documentation regarding sails, who made them and when, and who has maintained them. There is also the general evidence as to how the boat has been used. Five year old sails on a boat that has been thrashed around racing marks twice a week 30 weeks a year are going to be pretty knackered compared with saila that have been used for moderate cruising; you don't even need to see the sails themselves to make that kind of assessment. Seek your surveyor's advice, a good surveyor will write a caveat into his report having not surveyed the sails. You might try withholding full final payment until the sails are delivered to you and inspected, although as others have said the only way to really assess them properly is to put them up and go for a sail. If the vendor won't show you the sails you would I think be entitled to ask for your deposit to be returned.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

It seems odd to refuse to let you see the sails rather than try to help you. Personally, I would find that kind of response to be a warning sign that something is not right.
Unless you genuinely believe that the guy is straight I would insist on having access to what I am buying.

Seems odd to not have the sails on the boat at this time of year, or has it been out of commission for sometime?

 

[fireball]

We couldn't see the main at time of offering and surveyor won't do any more than quick look at the sail anyway - I'd doubt they'd put them up or lay them out anyway.

Make your offer subject to sails in satisfactory condition and get down to the sail loft to inspect them yourself.

 

[Lakesailor]

You have the money and they want it. You need to assess how good the sails are so you can programme their replacement , (this year, 3 or 5 years time?).
Price a new set and deduct that from the price of the boat. If he gets flustered ask him to show you the sails. Then re-appraise your offer. I'd want to see how they set, on the boat.

The ball's in his court.

Don't be flumoxed by "acccepted practice". There's far too much of that in boat sales.
It's your money. Spend it how you will.

 

[Seajet]

You have the money and they want it. You need to assess how good the sails are so you can programme their replacement , (this year, 3 or 5 years time?).
Price a new set and deduct that from the price of the boat. If he gets flustered ask him to show you the sails. Then re-appraise your offer. I'd want to see how they set, on the boat.

The ball's in his court.

Don't be flumoxed by "acccepted practice". There's far too much of that in boat sales.
It's your money. Spend it how you will.

+ 1

 

[Bosun Higgs]

So far I have sold 3 boats privately and none of the buyers has even looked at the sails. Had they wanted to they could have done since the sails were on the boats. But on the other hand, one buyer wanted a trial sail and the boat was decommissioned on the hard so I told him "no". There is a limit to how much trouble I would go to to satisfy one potential customer. There is such a thing as a nuisance customer, as I discovered when selling my last motorbike.

If the sails really matter to you enough to call off the deal say so - and I'm sure they will be produced.. Personally I would take the assurance of the sail loft perhaps going along to visit to look at the sails. In fact this is exactly what I did with my last purchase since the sail loft was nearby.

 

[Sandyman]

I'm in the "under offer" stage of buying a boat. Have booked in the survey. I've asked the vendor to ensure that the sails are aboard the vessel at the time of survey, and he has declined. He is saying that the sails are held with a reputable sail cleaning company, and has provided us with a recent(ish) report on the state of those sails, and therefore that he does not want to make them available to our surveyor because he fears that our surveyor will cause them to become dirty when/if he lays them out for inspection in the yard in which the vessel is lying.

Should we insist on seeing the sails before moving forward with the purchase?

Or accept the very positive "report" from the sail handling company?

Vendor has given us the handling company's contact details and given us clearance to contact them directly for further information - which I've yet to do.

Thoughts? Is this a very normal situation?

I don't see it as a normal situation at all. The vendor is selling the goods & he should present those goods for you to inspect prior to purchase. You should not be expected to go out of your way to inspect parts of those goods.
Depending on how much you want the yacht, but if I were you, I would tell the vendor to produce the sails or forget
the sale.

 

[simonfraser]

Unless it's a staysail, u want to see them up & set in a breeze, or deduct 2k.

 

[john_morris_uk]

We have bought and sold boats "subject to survey and test sail" - with the expectation that things will be demonstrated as working and satisfactory etc on the test sail.

I also try to act in good faith and not be totally picky on the test sail. Its a two way process.

Having said that, when the wind instrument didn't work on the Sigma 33 we were buying, it was a hurried renegotiate on the price on the dockside and we compromised on a three figure sum off the price 'towards' a new instrument.

For the OP - I don't see why you can't expect to see the sails at the storage company. Its no big deal to get them out and carefully go round them. Although you can't see the shape, its not too hard to see how worn they are. Then offer subject to a test sail to complete. Write the terms of the test sail down and agree them if necessary.