Buying a boat without seeing the sails?

[Fantasie 19]

But a description of sails as being in "good condition" is very subjective.

Agreed.... I'm reminded of the sign at Edinburgh Zoo over the seal enclosure that said the water was changed "regularly".... I leave you to imagine the colour of it....

Just ask him to recover the sails and have them bent on - that way you & the surveyor can raise them and have a look.... and they won't get dirty....

 

[CaptainBob]

Hi, thank you for all of the replies!

Some other facts for you:

We've been given free access to the sails in the loft where they're held. However, our surveyor is not willing to travel to their location (long way) and we do not have transport ourselves (live on a boat at anchor).

The vessel we're buying is on land and the yard does not allow the bending on of sails when a vessel is on land.

The current intention is to buy the vessel without a sea trial, and keep it on land until we launch it for the first time in spring 2012.

--

Any suggestions?

Even if the sails were present on the boat, in their bags, and our surveyor just confirms their existence and non-falling-apartness, it'd be better than nothing.


TY!

 

[Heckler]

Hi, thank you for all of the replies!

Some other facts for you:

We've been given free access to the sails in the loft where they're held. However, our surveyor is not willing to travel to their location (long way) and we do not have transport ourselves (live on a boat at anchor).

The vessel we're buying is on land and the yard does not allow the bending on of sails when a vessel is on land.

The current intention is to buy the vessel without a sea trial, and keep it on land until we launch it for the first time in spring 2012.

--

Any suggestions?

Even if the sails were present on the boat, in their bags, and our surveyor just confirms their existence and non-falling-apartness, it'd be better than nothing.


TY!

You have the dosh, he wants it! Simple, no see no buy!
Stu

 

[Evadne]

We've been given free access to the sails in the loft where they're held. However, our surveyor is not willing to travel to their location (long way) and we do not have transport ourselves (live on a boat at anchor).



--

Any suggestions?

Even if the sails were present on the boat, in their bags, and our surveyor just confirms their existence and non-falling-apartness, it'd be better than nothing.


TY!

If you were anywhere near Southampton, I could give you a lift at a mutually agreed time or date, if not, maybe someone on the forum more local to you could help?

 

[penfold]

Unless you can arrange transport I'd be thinking about making the offer conditional, that is witholding a portion of the money until the sails can be examined(in escrow perhaps?) or simply offering on the basis that the sails are shot and will need all new replacements.

 

[Poignard]

. . . or simply offering on the basis that the sails are shot and will need all new replacements.

That seems a good idea.

If he really cares about selling it (to you) he'll make arrangements for your surveyor to examine them. If he's got plenty of potential buyers then he won't care whether you buy it or not.

It must be a very special boat (and/or asking price) for you to even contemplate buyng it without first checking the sails.

One thing is sure, if you buy it and the sails turn out to be no good, he's likely to be even less co-operative when you go back and ask him for a few thousand pounds rebate!

 

[smth448]

In my experience a surveyor will not lay the sails out to look at them but will merely look at them in the bag. He ought to make the effort to go and do so. After all he will bill you for the travel.

Your vendor seems to be behaving quite reasonably. I suggest you ask him to give you a lift to wherever the sails are so you can look at them yourself if the surveyor won't. If the vendor won't give you a lift then he obviously doesn't really want your money. Either make him an offer based on the sails needing replacement or walk away. There are plenty of boats for sale at the moment.

As other have said you can;t really get much of an idea of the state of sails by looking at them on the floor. Since you can't raise them on the boat since it is laid up you are a bit short of options.

 

[Iain C]

Go to the loft. Ask to see them and tell the loft that you are planning a transat so you need anything slightly iffy sorting. Use resulting quote as bargaining power.

You can decide if they are in reasonable nick by seeing them laid out at the loft. Seeing the sails up is hardly going to tell you a massive amount...if the genoa flutters is it knackered, or a poor cut, or are you flying it wrong? If you turn up for a trial sail and it's blowing 30 knots, you'll have no idea what stuff looks like unreefed.

Personally, I'd rather have the sails laid out on a clean surface indoors and go over every inch myself, than take a surveyor's report or see them up..."yep, they are sails..."

Seeing how they are put in the bag will speak volumes about how they have been cared for too...

 

[ghostlymoron]

At the moment it is a buyers market so YOU call the shots. Having said that, I don't advocate confrontational approaches so I would just explain your concerns to the vendor and try to arrive at an acceptable solution. Maybe, as someone else has suggested, arrange to visit the sail loft where they are stored (IMHO it's a good sign that the vendor sends his sails off for an annual overhaul/clean) surely its not beyond your capabilities to get on a train/bus. Alternatively you could get a local surveyor (to them) to look at them for you and report or, pay your surveyor an extra fee to include this in his survey. Last survey I had the surveyor only made a cursory inspection of the sails in the bag, which doesn't tell you if the fit/set properly, but that is generally all you get from a standard survey.
It's worth satisfying yourself that all parts of the boat are in good condition which unfortunately would involve a test sail and out of water inspection too. Most surveys don't do this on the grounds of expense.
Finally, if you have any concerns, don't buy the first one that comes along - there's plenty of boats of all descriptions around for sale at the moment. Hope you get one that please you.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Any suggestions?

Even if the sails were present on the boat, in their bags, and our surveyor just confirms their existence and non-falling-apartness, it'd be better than nothing.


TY!

You already have information that is "more than nothing" ie a report from what you say is a reputable sail company that the sails are good. That is likely to be worth more in practise than any comment from a surveyor.

In my experience you will not buy a second hand boat and not have to do something significant to get it right. So budget 15% of the purchase cost with a min of say 3k for that eventuality.

Getting surveyors reports is really a bit of an illusion because the practicality of suing them for anything less than gross negligence simply isnt real. Not only that but you will often see more yourself with a crawl all over the boast than he will in the limited time he gives you. In short there is risk in boat buying and there is no way of avoiding it. Do the best you can but have a contingency budget.

 

[dhobyb]

Having recently been in a similar situation, I would be very careful accepting anything the seller, or Surveyor says for that matter. On the boat I bought the sails were in a bag having being recently laundered, and repeated requests to install them were ignored, but due to other pressures I had to accept that situation, when we installed the sails prior to departure we discovered no Genoa sheets, so they had to be purchased.

For what its worth when I buy my next boat I will engage a lawyer before a surveyor, and my advise is that you withhold part of the purchase fee until you completely satisfied.

and I will not go into all the other things I found once we got going, all of which I had to pay for.............10% of purchase fee sounds about right to withhold.

 

[KellysEye]

Standard terms are an offer is made subject to survey and trial sail. I can't see why this isn't the case, you have every right to enforce it.

 

[prv]

and I will not go into all the other things I found once we got going, all of which I had to pay for.............10% of purchase fee sounds about right to withhold.

If you were buying a brand new boat, that attitude and approach would be wholly appropriate. Buying used, it strikes me as borderline unreasonable. A private second-hand purchase, whether of a car, house or boat, is as-seen and with any faults there may be. If you buy a house and later find that the shower leaks, or the bannister needs re-attaching to the wall, you don't get to go back to the seller and say "oi, this house wasn't perfect, give me a couple of grand back!". Same with boats; it's normal to find minor issues as you get used to it, and every guide to buying boats advises a contingency fund to fix them.

If, as people are saying, it's a buyer's market right now, you might get sellers who feel they have to deal on your terms or not at all. But you might equally find people (I'd be among them) who think you're more trouble than you're worth and prefer to sell to someone else.

Pete

 

[Lakesailor]

Perhaps so. So someone else would get the grief.

I bought a boat very cheaply with completely shot mainsail so I knew I was going to have a new one to buy. If I hadn't seen it on the boat I wouldn't have realised how bad it was. Stitching was OK, bolt rope didn't seem to be shrunk, etc. But on the boat it hung like a bedouin's tent.

Give your money away by all means but don't feel the vendor holds all the cards.

 

[William_H]

Sails

You should insist on the sails being provided on the boat before final settlement. (He may owe a lot of money on the sails so they won't release them.) You could check as to apparent condition on accepting them.
However you are buying a boat on the hard. So sail performance is going to be something you can not check and hopefully the price will reflect that.
In the end however you must also put your self in the position of the seller. He will want reason to believe you are going to buy before going to the trouble of recovering sails and having them unrolled etc.
So give a deposit that makes him comfortable you are serious but protect yourself as well.
Finally people are always disappointed in some way with a purchase of a second hand boat. So just expect as already said you will want to spend time and money getting it just as you want it. good luck olewill

 

[CaptainBob]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply in such depth. Some really good info and thoughts. Cheers.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Standard terms are an offer is made subject to survey and trial sail. I can't see why this isn't the case, you have every right to enforce it.

There are no standard terms though a broker might try to tell you that there are. The only deal available is one you can agree between yourself and the vendor. You cannot "enforce" anything - you arent trading standards and this isnt a commercial transaction but a private deal.

 

[Stu Jackson]

What condition is the REST of the boat in? That may tell you a lot. My sailmaker can tell a blown sail from a good one, in the dark.

 

[KellysEye]

>There are no standard terms though a broker might try to tell you that there are. The only deal available is one you can agree between yourself and the vendor. You cannot "enforce" anything - you arent trading standards and this isnt a commercial transaction but a private deal.

All brokers terms I've seen are very similar and all I've seen contain a trial sail. Question for the OP are you using a broker and do they specify in the contract 'contract subject to survey and trial sail'. I wouldn't touch a boat I hadn't sailed a trial in.