prv
Well-Known Member
At the same time, he is the man with the boat you (presumably) like, and if he doesn't want to do things your way then you won't be able to buy it.
Pete
Buying a boat - this can't be right, can it??
- Thread starter mriley
- Start date
At the same time, he is the man with the boat you (presumably) like, and if he doesn't want to do things your way then you won't be able to buy it.
Pete
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Maybe that depends on the value of the boat L/S. Lets say you are 200 miles from your boat..you ok to tell the broker to hand over the keys and let the bloke go out in £x00,000s of your property? Or expect the broker to do it. or ...?
As to regards the "I'm the bloke with the money". well, hopefully, or how do you expect to pay for it? So what, in effect.
You are of course, also the guy trying to buy a boat. So, lets say you find the perfect one.. are buyer and seller not now on equal footing?
I think this is one the reason there ARE procedures...they actually indicate how people should behave in the process,so perhaps there is a little less scope for ego and personalities.
maby
Well-Known Member
I can't agree with suggestions that the sea trial does not exist to find out if you like the boat. These are (usually) big purchases and the handling characteristics of a boat are important considerations. We don't all want the same things - the "boy racers" want performance and don't care if the boat heels - cruisers may be willing to accept less performance, but want a boat that stays relatively upright and doesn't bounce around too much. If you are buying an AWB that has been in production for a few years, there will be reviews available to help you but if you are buying something that has only recently hit the market, or is so old or obscure that PBO or Yachting Monthly have not reviewed it, then you have nothing to go on. It does not matter how much you are spending in absolute terms - most of us buy boats that are close to the maximum we personally can afford and we don't want to find that we have made a poor choice. I think it is perfectly valid to request a sea trial to find out if you like it, but equally the vendor can request a deposit to have some confidence that the potential purchaser is serious about it.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That approach is precisely why the contract is a framework. The seller of an unusual boat may well find it difficult to sell without a potential buyer first trying it. The principle is that (like you) the potential buyer must show some commitment before the seller lets him loose on his private property. As several people have said, in many cases it is a low cost low risk exercise to take somebody out for a run, but as John says it can be a hugely expensive and risky activity. A private boat sale is an agreement between two private individuals and a one off activity for each party so it is important that both are clear about what the ground rules are for the transaction.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
There is a difference between saying to the seller that this is pretty much the boat you want, but there are a couple of things you would like to verify as part of a sea trial,but you are happy to put up a deposit to show you are serious as long as it is refundable on the agreed basis, and saying that you have no idea what you want and can you go out on the boat with no commitment to see if it is a bundle of fun ?
Back to the OP.. he rolls up, doesnt know the procedure, quite possibly doesnt know what he wants, doesnt want to follow the established procedures, doesnt want to bear any costs, but wants to go out for a no commitment spin round the bay...would you as a seller say, yep, great idea.. use my private boat as your learning curve?
The concept of quite what the sea trial is for is laid out in the standard terms- as a standard. You can of course add or subtract anything you like if you can both agree. The idea behind it though, must be that you are contracting to buy the boat, subject to what you pre-agree in the contract/sea trial.
Ok, to be fair to OP, he may now undertsand what/how/why things are how they are, and we all start somewhere.
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jonic
Well-Known Member
For the record.
Whenever we have conducted sea trials within the agreed legal framework the sale has proceeded smoothly to conclusion every time.
On the odd occasion we have bowed to the pressure of "I'm the bloke with the money" they have NEVER purchased. Not once. Not ever.
On one memorable occasion we conducted a trial on a £300k boat on that basis in the Hamble. It was just a formality he said, trouble getting the deposit he said, it would all be signed tomorrow he said, I'm the bloke with the money he said.
So we hired a skipper and a crew, put the safety pack on board, sorted the insurance and he had a lovely 4 hour sail up and down the Solent.
....and he did buy the boat. Except it wasn't ours. It was the one 150 miles away in Devon.
For far too many "buyers" it is as Jwilson says a hobby, or a bare faced attempt to test sail before buying a totally different boat.
Contract and deposit brings both serious buyers and sellers to the table and protects both sides.
A good broker will alter things if he sees it is relevant for that particular deal.
I have never known a deposit NOT returned if there are issues.
Whenever we have conducted sea trials within the agreed legal framework the sale has proceeded smoothly to conclusion every time.
On the odd occasion we have bowed to the pressure of "I'm the bloke with the money" they have NEVER purchased. Not once. Not ever.
On one memorable occasion we conducted a trial on a £300k boat on that basis in the Hamble. It was just a formality he said, trouble getting the deposit he said, it would all be signed tomorrow he said, I'm the bloke with the money he said.
So we hired a skipper and a crew, put the safety pack on board, sorted the insurance and he had a lovely 4 hour sail up and down the Solent.
....and he did buy the boat. Except it wasn't ours. It was the one 150 miles away in Devon.
For far too many "buyers" it is as Jwilson says a hobby, or a bare faced attempt to test sail before buying a totally different boat.
Contract and deposit brings both serious buyers and sellers to the table and protects both sides.
A good broker will alter things if he sees it is relevant for that particular deal.
I have never known a deposit NOT returned if there are issues.
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Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
All good points, but if the owner want to demonstrate his or her boat at it best by having it lifted and scrubbed before any sea trial then it seems a bit cheeky to ask the buyer to pay for it.
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jonic
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Pragmatism rules here.
maby
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised at the need to hire a skipper and crew. As I said, we've been round this route five times now - twice buying (or, at least, intending to buy) second hand boats that were being sold via a broker and three times buying (or intending to buy) a new boat from a main dealer. In the cases of the second-hand purchases via a broker, the sea trial was done with the owners, organised by the broker and it was just a case of turning up at the marina at an agreed time and the owner taking us out for an hour or two in local waters.
For one of the prospective new boat purchases, the dealer organised a sea trial on a similar boat that they had sold to another customer and the owner took us out for a couple of hours - I gather that the dealer gave them a good deal on the next service in exchange for their cooperation. On the other two occasions, the dealer had a demonstrator and they took us out, skippering and crewing themselves. In the most recent case, it was the managing director who took us out - and clearly fancied a morning sailing himself!
We purchased the first of the second-hand boats, rejected the second due to defects that we could not agree a resolution for, purchased the first of the new boats following the sea trial on the privately owned example, rejected the second of the new boats based on some aspects of the design and are awaiting delivery of the third - we are demonstrably serious customers!
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Obviously, buying a new boat is a completely different kettle of fish to buying second-hand, and isn't comparable withthe OP's situation.
However, I think you have been lucky to find owners who have the time and inclination to take prospective buyers out for a trial. I couldn't do it if I were selling my boat - I live 400 miles away! And there have been polls on these forums suggesting that a lot of owners live significant distances from their boats. If that's the case, then the owner would be incur costs in providing a trial sail - travelling costs, at least. And, of course, the risk that the prospective purchaser simply didn't turn up! As Jonic says, if the owner can't do a trial sail then you're into providing a skipper and crew, insurance and everything else - and that isn't going to happen without a substantial committment to the sale.
That said, I do think the vendor in the OP's case is being a bit cheeky asking for a lift and scrub BEFORE a trial. If the boat's in the water, why is that necessary?
jonic
Well-Known Member
Depends on the size of the yacht and the sail plan.
The last one I did was with me, the fake buyer, the skipper and a winch gorilla.
The actual owner was overseas.
Sometimes we have the surveyor along too!
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Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Yes. You have got the same approach I have. Did I say I wanted a blast around just for the fun of it for free? No. I said I would be prepared to meet all the costs of providing the short trip. I am not calling it a Sea Trial with the inferences that include. It is to see if I and the boat gel.
Your examples of the type of boat and opportunities to experience it are precisely what I mean.
If you haven't had experience of a particular boat how do you get it? Those in this thread have a weird concept that it shouldn't be on someone else's "private property ".
Err.. Hullo! The vendor is trying to shift that private property on. Should the purchaser go and blag a ride on a similar boat to get his experience? From someone who will not benefit from the trip. No. The prospective buyer should cover the expenses of a short trip on the sale boat to see if he (and his crew) actually like the boat.
I can't imagine any other situation in which the vendor would expect someone to fork out substantial amounts of money, and possibly actually purchase an item, not knowing if it's dynamic qualities are what they want.
The comparisons with buying a house are so far from the mark as to be ludicrous.
I am not going to be spending £100K on a boat, but if I were I would be passing on those vendors who wouldn't go half-way to encourage me to like their offering.
maby
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, obviously a problem in cases such as yours, but I've always had difficulty understanding how anyone can own a boat and have it so far away! Ours is about 70 miles away and we consider it to be too far - ideally we would like to be able to pop along for an evening sailing after work and it can take us more than an hour to get there.
There do seem to be plenty of boats in the marina that are only used a few weekends every year - most of them worth several tens of thousands of pounds and some up in the hundreds of thousands - why do people buy them?
jonic
Well-Known Member
Lakey. I love you. I love your posts. I sail a Heron dinghy (last time on Windermere as it happens). I used to be in commercial photography.
...but you are assuming that everyone is honest like you and their motives are honorable. I can tell you they are not.
Imagine the conversation I would have to have with an owner of a quarter of a million pound yacht when I ring to say," I lent someone your boat, because he said he was really serious and he's the bloke with the money and he has stuffed it into the pontoon and now it's sitting partly submerged in the harbor entrance, the RNLI are here and the marina want to bring in a salvage tug to clear the channel" And the owner says "but you did have a legal contract and deposit in place didn't you?"
Followed by the conversation with my insurer, the marina insurer, the actual boat's insurer...
The other thing that you may be overlooking is that if someone is forking out the costs for a seatrial on a boat they are seriously intending buying, they WANT a contract and deposit in place so it can't be sold from under them whilst they are paying out for trials.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Very interesting to hear that.
Not surprising though, as those who are following the procedures have already committed to buy the boat, unless unforeseen problems arise. Those who dont want to follow the procedures admit they dont actually know what to buy, so are of course highly likely to drop out. For that reason, I can see why private sellers, and their brokers, are not very interested in spending too much time on them.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
Interesting comments and I can quite believe them.
However, the OP should be aware that everything is negotiable and there is no such thing as "standard practice" since there isnt anyone of standing to set a standard practice. Haggle a deal with which you are happy and if you cannot get such a deal walk away. I would certainly never pay for the scrub and wash off - thats definitely to the sellers account or that of the broker. But getting to the point of an agreed price and a RETURNABLE 10% deposit before expecting them to make the boat ready for a sea trial is not unreasonable. After all you are putting them to some trouble and they need to know you are serious and not just a tyre kicker.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Right, but you dont like the half way on offer, do you- the established procedure? You actually want it more your favour.
I dont say you have to follow the standard contract, but I do think that both sides need to recognise that this is generally considered equitable to BOTH parties. Now, you might personally not agree with the standard contract, but you might recognise that it is therefore YOU who is not being reasonable and fair.
As Jonic says, of course there can be agreed amendments if that is likely to complete the deal. OTOH, what does he do if ten people phone up and say,cor, can I go out on that to see if I gel with it? Oh, hang on, and that one, and a few down the road too..He needs some mechanism for sorting out the time wasters from the serious buyer.. hang on.. we have a way of doing that.
maby
Well-Known Member
Lakey. I love you. I love your posts. I sail a Heron dinghy (last time on Windermere as it happens). I used to be in commercial photography.
...but you are assuming that everyone is honest like you and their motives are honorable. I can tell you they are not.
Imagine the conversation I would have to have with an owner of a quarter of a million pound yacht when I ring to say," I lent someone your boat, because he said he was really serious and he's the bloke with the money and he has stuffed it into the pontoon and now it's sitting partly submerged in the harbor entrance, the RNLI are here and the marina want to bring in a salvage tug to clear the channel" And the owner says "but you did have a legal contract and deposit in place didn't you?"
Followed by the conversation with my insurer, the marina insurer, the actual boat's insurer...
...
Understandable, but I would think that an unwillingness to permit a sea trial must reduce your chances of making the sale. If I were considering purchasing a boat that is identical to that of one of our friends, I probably would not be insisting on a trip out, but I certainly would not be making an irrevocable commitment to hand over a quarter of a million for a boat that I had not had any experience of. You can probably be a bit precious about letting someone try your forty-odd foot AWB - most of us know someone with a Jeanneau/Beneteau/Bavaria forty-something and can ask for a quick trip. When you start getting into the serious end of the market, the number of examples around are far fewer and you probably need the seller to allow you a run out.
We were eyeing up a Najad fifty-something last year - we couldn't afford it and didn't pursue it, but I certainly would not have handed over a good half million without spending several hours behind the wheel!
jonic
Well-Known Member
But there is no unwillingness. There just has to be a deposit and an agreed sale price beforehand. So everyone knows where they stand. It is very simple.
maby
Well-Known Member
On that basis, fine - but there were suggestions earlier (which sparked this branch of the thread) that the only purpose of the "sea trial" should be to verify condition, not to confirm that the boat is to the buyer's liking. That is what I was disagreeing with - boats handle in dramatically different ways and it's not realistic to commit to the purchase of something that is designed to move, potentially costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, purely on the strength of inspecting it tied up at the pontoon!
