Buying a boat - this can't be right, can it??

[jonic]

On that basis, fine - but there were suggestions earlier (which sparked this branch of the thread) that the only purpose of the "sea trial" should be to verify condition, not to confirm that the boat is to the buyer's liking. That is what I was disagreeing with - boats handle in dramatically different ways and it's not realistic to commit to the purchase of something that is designed to move, potentially costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, purely on the strength of inspecting it tied up at the pontoon!

Ironically, despite this thread, most sailing yacht sales do not have a sea trial. I don't know if it is different with the MoBo's?

Anybody who sells on the dark side like to enlighten us?

With sailing yachts ( second hand) most will have been reviewed by the time they come to the second hand market and newer boats will have a dealer demo boat.

 

[maby]

Ironically, despite this thread, most sailing yacht sales do not have a sea trial. I don't know if it is different with the MoBo's?

Anybody who sells on the dark side like to enlighten us?

Strictly speaking, it should be the other way round - assuming the boat is in the water, the only cost associated with sea trailing a sailing yacht should be half a pint of diesel to get off the pontoon - sea trialing a medium sized MoBo could easily consume several gallons!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Hmmm, obviously a problem in cases such as yours, but I've always had difficulty understanding how anyone can own a boat and have it so far away! Ours is about 70 miles away and we consider it to be too far - ideally we would like to be able to pop along for an evening sailing after work and it can take us more than an hour to get there.

There do seem to be plenty of boats in the marina that are only used a few weekends every year - most of them worth several tens of thousands of pounds and some up in the hundreds of thousands - why do people buy them?

Well, I live something like 60-odd miles from the nearest navigable salt water, so I'm faced with a journey wherever I sail. It happens that for both family reasons and personal preference, I keep my boat in Scotland. How often I can use her depends on a variety of factors, but we try and manage about once a month, with longer holidays maybe twice a year. Obviously, I am looking for the future when I can spend longer up there!

 

[maby]

Well, I live something like 60-odd miles from the nearest navigable salt water, so I'm faced with a journey wherever I sail. It happens that for both family reasons and personal preference, I keep my boat in Scotland. How often I can use her depends on a variety of factors, but we try and manage about once a month, with longer holidays maybe twice a year. Obviously, I am looking for the future when I can spend longer up there!

We've been boatless for a month and are already chewing our fingernails off! Perhaps the timewasters that Jonic refers to are people that have actually bought a boat and are awaiting delivery - suffering with serious withdrawl symptoms and using test drives to control them!

 

[gjgm]

Ironically, despite this thread, most sailing yacht sales do not have a sea trial. I don't know if it is different with the MoBo's?

Anybody who sells on the dark side like to enlighten us?

With sailing yachts ( second hand) most will have been reviewed by the time they come to the second hand market and newer boats will have a dealer demo boat.

I think that with a mobo, so much of the cost is tied up in those engines,so that it is sensible to put them through their paces, as problems can be very expensive.For that, you need a sea trial.
If you have done your homework, you should have a fair idea of the handling traits of various brands, and you should know the difference between the hull designs. It is also highly likely I suggest that cockpit layout,cabins heads,galleys have all been assessed without a sea trial, so you really should be fairly sure what you are narrowing down to.I dont think anyone is complaining about someone looking over their boat.
You might not test drive as many boats as Dave Marsh, but you should have a pretty good idea if this is the boat for you.. you should be pretty sure, I think.

 

[davidej]

Ironically, despite this thread, most sailing yacht sales do not have a sea trial. I don't know if it is different with the MoBo's?

I don't know what value the average buyer of a yacht would obtain from a couple of hours trial sail.

If it is a F2 - what would that tell you about how it would perform in an F6 or visa versa. Would you try it under cruising chute / spinney. Reefed or not reefed. How would it perform in a ocean swell when you are trialing it in a Channel chop etc etc. The variations seem endless.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

If I was familiar with the boat that I wanted to buy I would not ask for a sea trial, (unless I thought that perhaps something was not quite right and needed a sea trial) however, if I was not familiar with that particular boat then most certainly I would want a sea trial and be prepared to share the risk and inconvenience. In the main, I would expect the seller and his agent to go out of their way to satisfy the potential buyer at their risk; especially, at the present economic situation.

 

[mikecontessa26]

but surely if you did this you'd be putting it in and out the water for every buyer, and it's not cheap! I think i'd want to see the boat out of the water and then follow the reviews. Like people have said already, every day on the sea is different and your not going to get anything from it.

If I was familiar with the boat that I wanted to buy I would not ask for a sea trial, (unless I thought that perhaps something was not quite right and needed a sea trial) however, if I was not familiar with that particular boat then most certainly I would want a sea trial and be prepared to share the risk and inconvenience. In the main, I would expect the seller and his agent to go out of their way to satisfy the potential buyer at their risk; especially, at the present economic situation.

 

[jwilson]

but surely if you did this you'd be putting it in and out the water for every buyer, and it's not cheap! I think i'd want to see the boat out of the water and then follow the reviews. Like people have said already, every day on the sea is different and your not going to get anything from it.

We did once arrange a sea trial (after deposit/survey) for the sale of a boat that had completed 4 transatlantic circuits, one quite recently. The buyer wanted a boat for the Shetlands, where he lived and worked. It was a flat calm on the sea trial day....

He bought it anyway, and sailed it up there, and reported later that it was excellent.

It was one of those unusual cases where it was an unusual boat - a ferrocement cruiser-racer! Yes it was ferro and yes it was a fast boat - see http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/h30402-ashore.jpg for the hull - a grown up Contessa 32.

 

[Grumpybear]

I can see the logic of the "standard sequence" argument, but as said the sea trial may reasonably be more than just a final check. Our current boat was for us a big step up - from 28 to 36 feet - and we had no previous experience of sailing a lively boat that size two up. The vendors through the broker immediately offered us a sea trial as soon as they realised from our detailed questions that we were seriously interested. The trial, in a F6, resolved our doubts and we have not looked back. The broker arranged and skippered the trial, which involved him in a 70 mile round trip by road. Also, there was at least one other serious potential buyer on the scene (another forumite, as it happened).

 

[l'escargot]

I sea trialled my boat after offer accepted, deposit and survey. It was out the water so it would have been daft to pay to launch her for a sea trial and then pay again to lift her for a survey. You aren't going to find out how a boat behaves in different conditions in a couple of hours anyway, my main aim was to give the engine a run for an hour or so under load and to shake the sails out to have a look at them and the running and standing rigging under sail.

 

[winsbury]

I bought my first sailing yacht recently and was initially shocked to find the lift and survey costs are the buyers responsibility - the argument is that its the buyer thats at risk so it makes sense to have the survey commissioned in your own name just in case of comebacks. Having reluctantly accepted that was how it was done, my survey turned out to be a waste of time - many areas that had faults were excluded in the small print and fixing them all has cost a small fortune. What has become clear is that had we had a sea trial before these faults were fixed we could have been in grave danger - the standing rigging for example had only 3 strands left on the forestay but this was hidden inside the furling foil so excluded from survey and one of the skin fittings had 6 feet of old plastic pipe leading from the sink without any sea cock, I cant understand why this wasnt spotted except one had to follow the routing of the pipe to see it.

In short, my advice when buying a used boat would NOT be to do a sea trial until after a survey and even then only after you have had a damn good look at all the bits that arent covered by it. And, if at all possible, get the very best surveyor you can and insist that he covers it with a fine tooth comb.

 

[maby]

I bought my first sailing yacht recently and was initially shocked to find the lift and survey costs are the buyers responsibility - the argument is that its the buyer thats at risk so it makes sense to have the survey commissioned in your own name just in case of comebacks. Having reluctantly accepted that was how it was done, my survey turned out to be a waste of time - many areas that had faults were excluded in the small print and fixing them all has cost a small fortune. What has become clear is that had we had a sea trial before these faults were fixed we could have been in grave danger - the standing rigging for example had only 3 strands left on the forestay but this was hidden inside the furling foil so excluded from survey and one of the skin fittings had 6 feet of old plastic pipe leading from the sink without any sea cock, I cant understand why this wasnt spotted except one had to follow the routing of the pipe to see it.

In short, my advice when buying a used boat would NOT be to do a sea trial until after a survey and even then only after you have had a damn good look at all the bits that arent covered by it. And, if at all possible, get the very best surveyor you can and insist that he covers it with a fine tooth comb.

More to the point, there is no legal requirement for a survey to be done at all, so it is not really up to the seller to pay for it. My bigger problem with surveyors is their unwillingness to make categorical statements - this caused us some serious problems with a purchase a few years ago and set us down the path of only buying new boats with a full manufacturer's warranty. We looked at a five year old boat which we liked and was at an (apparently) good price so we decided to proceed with a sea trial and survey. The broker took a 10% deposit and we went out for a spin with the owner. In the process of that, we uncovered a couple of apparent defects which gave us some cause for concern and told the surveyor about them. He came back with a report that was so highly caveated as to be of no use to us. It acknowledged the defects and stated that they were probably not significant. This, of course, left us in a very difficult position - if we proceeded with the purchase and the boat subsequently required major repairs, that "probably" could have been used by his professional indemnity insurers to wriggle out of paying for the work - but when we decided to pull out of the purchase and request the refund of our deposit, the vendor got difficult because the defects were "probably not significant". We ended up threatening legal action to recover the deposit because there was clear evidence that the vendor had made a clumsey attempt to hide the defects and accidentally admitted that they were aware of them. The broker was holding the deposit and unilaterally agreed to refund the deposit because they had mislead him too.

I ended up sending an email to the surveyor asking him to give me a written undetaking that the defects observed would never become significant and he, understandably, refused - we forwarded that email to the vendor and broker who gave in.

 

[Jim@sea]

If you really, really want this boat and it is the only one in the UK for sale I would do the following. (that is assuming that you cannot see another one somewhere else)
1. Offer to pay to have the boat lifted out of the water and have the hull pressure washed off. (that way you can see immediately if the Hull has Osmosis) or with careful inspection if the hull has been painted.
2. And say that as soon as the boat is on the hard and you have had a walk round and inspected the hull you will make an offer and pay a 10% Deposit, Subject to Survey.
3. If they dont agree to this, walk away.
4. If they do agree and you have a Survey. Be there. I had a survey once on a Boat which was 9 years old and the surveyor missed that the hull had been repainted 3 years before (because of osmosis) and that was a 1973 boat so I would assume that since then the hull has been painted another twice.
5. You could also suggest that when the boat comes out of the water that you are there then as they will probably have to start the engine to move it to the crane. And again if they dont agree, walk away.

As a footnote. If you are buying a house and the house is registered with the Land Registry, the information is considered "Public Information" and you pay £6 to download the information about the owner. So if a Boat is also Registered and has a Registration Number one should be able ask for the Boat Owners Details to contact them. Not to cut out the Brokers Fee but the owner of this boat may be totally unaware of your interest and you both could agree terms.

 

[Tranona]

As a footnote. If you are buying a house and the house is registered with the Land Registry, the information is considered "Public Information" and you pay £6 to download the information about the owner. So if a Boat is also Registered and has a Registration Number one should be able ask for the Boat Owners Details to contact them. Not to cut out the Brokers Fee but the owner of this boat may be totally unaware of your interest and you both could agree terms.

And if the seller has any sense he will tell you to deal with the broker. That is why he has appointed the broker - to deal with enquiries and potential purchasers on his behalf. If the buyer has made an offer the owner will know about it. If he has just expressed interest and not made an offer, he is not a buyer so no reason for him to talk to the owner.

 

[KellysEye]

>I don't agree. I did the exact opposite, No deposit, brief trial, haul out, wash off and survey at my expense, and then made the offer. It was a 30yr old motor sailor so no way would I have had it surveyed first and then found the engine & / or gearbox was junk. I was suspicious when I arrived for the trial to find the engine was already warm...

Thats odd, the opposite of what my broker required, Berthon in Lymington. Out of interest which broker did you use.

 

[jonic]

As a footnote. If you are buying a house and the house is registered with the Land Registry, the information is considered "Public Information" and you pay £6 to download the information about the owner. So if a Boat is also Registered and has a Registration Number one should be able ask for the Boat Owners Details to contact them. Not to cut out the Brokers Fee but the owner of this boat may be totally unaware of your interest and you both could agree terms.

If on part one you can, for a fee, apply for a transcript- but it's slow and you won't get an email or telephone number just a name and address.

Anyhow the broker is obliged to put all offers forward if he is an ABYA broker.

Secondly - well certainly if it was me- even if the broker has a sniff of real intent he would be able to put together an agreement that protects both parties insurance and financial position with regard to a test drive.

Brokerage is very hard at the moment and requires a lot of time, energy and creativity to get results ( for both buyers and sellers).

Weeding out the very costly, both in time and money, professional boat buyer is part of that process. It's an art but you need to combine that with keeping everything within a tight legal framework, and be prepared to build very long term relationships with buyers as they go through the selection process.

Fortunately I am hitting the right mix http://www.jryachts.com/yachtsforsale.php

But we have to be forever wary of those looking to literally take us for a ride.

I suggest the OP goes back to the broker, says he is really serious and prepared to agree a price and pay a deposit, but would like a mutual agreement with regards to grounds for withdrawing after a test drive with his deposit returned in full.

 

[winsbury]

While looking for a boat and although we were absolutely serious we undoubtedly used up some of various brokers time viewing boats which for whatever reason we decided were not right for us before putting an offer in on the one we liked. As I run my own business I am acutely aware of timewasters so am concious of trying not to do it to others but there is inevitably some viewings which dont result in a positive result for broker or buyer no matter how honest both parties are. It was interesting to note that while at the broker from whom we did finally seal a deal that on the sunny Saturday we collected it from the yard there were tens of people wandering around asking imho pretty daft questions and sopping up the brokers time when they clearly hadnt a clue about boats and would be a danger to themselves and others if they had gone out for a trial sail. If / when we come to sells ours I personally would prefer to use a broker to keep all those numpties at bay and really wouldnt want any to bypass the broker.

 

[gjgm]

I can see the logic of the "standard sequence" argument, but as said the sea trial may reasonably be more than just a final check. Our current boat was for us a big step up - from 28 to 36 feet - and we had no previous experience of sailing a lively boat that size two up. The vendors through the broker immediately offered us a sea trial as soon as they realised from our detailed questions that we were seriously interested. The trial, in a F6, resolved our doubts and we have not looked back. The broker arranged and skippered the trial, which involved him in a 70 mile round trip by road. Also, there was at least one other serious potential buyer on the scene (another forumite, as it happened).

You have a point.. you were OFFERED a sea trail ONCE the broker/vendor saw you were serious. The split it opinion here seems to be between that and the opinion that a sea trail should be available (or I will walk away,shock horror) with no indication of being serious. In fact, offered on nothing more than the desire to try the boat.

 

[Rossynant]

I think it is reasonably obvious that the buyer doesn't know the process used to buy a boat. Whether therefore he has understood what the broker is saying is questionable.
I dont think the broker has refused the buyer permission to look at the boat. Are we reading the same post ?

I'll come back to this:
Buyer has every right not to know the process. He may be doing it first time, ye know. All we know is OP's post, and clearly he has a misunderstanding or misinformation here, but he has it from the broker, this is not something that struck at him from heavens. But he wants the boat, this I believe.

Broker is a professional here and he has no excuses - it's his job to secure a deal when interested customer comes in. It his job also to make sure the customer gets informed, as of course he may not understand what broker is saying. This is usually caused by what broker actually is saying, ain't it?

I'm supposing OP wants this boat, we do not know any more than his post.
But he is actually afraid of losing money here, and should not be - broker should be advising him that deposit is fully refundable (no matter what reason OP finds against a deal!) and also providing him with some way of finding if he initially likes a boat before further commitment. It's not a problem really. And can be done before sea trial, in fact. It's also brokers job to find out whether the buyer looks genuine...


It is my own finding that some UK sellers do not really want to sell boats... was interested in some, and got turned down by sellers for no good reason, without even an opportunity to check if the boat actually exists...
May also point out that I personally have lost a deposit on one boat. Anybody saying this would not happen should think again. In my particular situation it was not a great lost, as I lose more money for travel to see a boat anyway - this also is something broker should realize: people want to buy a boat, not to waste time and money they could spend for, say, sailing perhaps? I may be not so familiar with UK, but have yet to see a single "tirekicker who is not really buying". So there cannot be so many of those.
Maybe they are not buying the first boat shown? Maybe some brokers could try harder and keep in mind a buyer who comes to them will walk away finding he was deceived, or the boat is a wreck, or simply when he gets treated as some "stupid tirekicker"?

And offer on price does depend on boat condition - I can't understand UK notion this can be made without some preliminary check. Normal practice anywhere is to get surveyor for doing such preliminary check even before coming to see...
It is understandable for buyer to want checking everything first, as he has no reason to believe what he is told. Broker is not an owner, he may not know real state of the boat. But he should not be surprised buyer walks out finding boat "not as described". Waste of time when buyer cannot trust the seller. Then do not ask buyers to hand money over on grounds of "mutual trust and commitment", OK?

When I bought mine, from brokers, such was the case, and I don't blame broker whatsoever as this was cheap one and he has more important deals going. The boat was listed for a year already, things change. No sea trial I got, despite it was agreed, as boat was ashore not fit to be put in water - but she was in fact described as on water and ready to sail, even broker was not aware she has been lifted out in the meantime... found out when he got my offer. I have naturally made an offer on price, in writing, deposit was to be made after offer was accepted, and actually broker didn't ask for it when he saw me there... but I would have payed.
So everything can be arranged and discussed, according to particular situation, but it's the broker who runs his business, has experience, and should be able to deal with things. I would not have trust in someone who cannot act efficiently here.
Actually I found it nice to be told, by a broker, right from beginning and without asking, that this "ready to sail" in advert is just what everyone says but I should not believe it Yup, I realize, but broker is to get his customer informed, no? Some may not realize this is normal way of 'customary' lies and cheats, so he may get disappointed, happens.

I don't think a sea trial is absolutely necessary (and didn't make mine), even professional survey is not (but I could make my own if necessery) - but a buyer may think it is, and he has the right to think so. It's his money involved.

All those who say buyer should try similar boat first and gather info beforehand, make his mind etc - well, that may be right with buying a popular dinghy...
My boat is one of 20 ever built - where do I find another to try?

As said, I understand the boat is in water, it's possible to get in and see her over, can be shown to the OP, can be surveyed even. All this can be made before OP makes offer on price really. Can even be demonstrated to OP that he doesn't need a sea trial at least not before committing money on haulout. Engine can be run on mooring, systems tested, educated guessing made on hull condition - so to lessen probability this money would be wasted.
But naturally for broker this would mean doing his job as a salesman...