Buying a boat - this can't be right, can it??

[mriley]

I am looking to buy a boat, and have seen one that interests me. It is in the water (and has been for some time). The agent has said it cannot be taken for a test drive until I make an offer that is accepted by the seller, and have paid 10% of the price agreed. Then it has to be taken out of the water, have its bottom and outdrive pressure washed (all at my expense), and only then can it be taken for a test drive. This means I have to effectively commit to buy the boat without the opportunity to inspect the hull or underwater fittings, and without taking it for a test drive to see if the thing even works. And run the risk of losing 10% of the price (and the cost of lift out, pressure wash and relaunch) if I don't like what I see. This does not seem right, but the agent assures me it is standard practice. I should say this is my first attempt at buying a boat through a dealer, previous purchases have been private (which seemed a lot easier and far less risky). I would welcome any advice at this stage, thank you (in advance).

 

[Searush]

They probably get a lot of tyre kickers wanting a free sail - or at least that's what they are worried about. Jonic of this forum is a broker, he will give you the chapter & verse. have you tried asking them if it is worth losing a sale over? The other thing is do you have the owner's details - ask him for a sea trial directly.

I think the requirement for you to pay for haul out & clean is a bit cheeky as you will struggle to get that back, but if the boat does have a problem you should be able to get your deposit back - but as always there is no guarantee it will not be a long hard battle or even successful if you just decide you don't like the way it floats.

 

[Topcat47]

It is standard practise for the vendor to pay the cost of the lift out for a survey. You'd pay for the wash off too, so the surveyor could get a good look at the hull. I've never come across anyone trying to get this done before a trial sail (motor?). My attitude would be to say "If you want to sell it, I want to try it before I commit". This is much more polite than saying "get stuffed" but in both cases you need to be prepared to walk away.

 

[Plevier]

It is standard practise for the vendor to pay the cost of the lift out for a survey.

Think you mean "buyer".

 

[oldsaltoz]

The owner must have debt collectors and does not want his boat sold to pay them off.

 

[C08]

I think the concept of withdrawing from a sale and retrieving a 10% deposit is Ok but the practicality of this I think is often very different. When I bought my first sea boat the survey threw up lots of little things that individually were no big deal but collectively was a lot of work and quite a lot of money. I tried to withdraw from the sale but the seller would not refund my deposit. I argued that the survey had revealed lots of problems that needed rectifying before the boat would be fully seaworthy and the seller argued that there were no structural faults. We were both right. We had used the RYA form of sale agreement that referred only to structural faults and withdrawal from the sale. I did not feel confident enough to take it to law apart from the time and cost of this. Eventually he took a few things off the boat and lowered the price, not sure who got the best deal out of this and I bought the boat.

Lesson I learned-I would not part with a deposit before a survey. The risk of paying to survey a boat that is then then sold to someone else is small and the amount of money that the 10% deposit protects is also too small to be worth getting tangled up with sellers in this way.

 

[vyv_cox]

It is surely unrealistic to expect a potential purchaser to commit to fairly major expenditure before even a test sail? The correct order should be, IMHO,:
1. Test sail or thorough inspection (ashore) to determine whether there is any point in continuing
2. Deposit
3. Survey
This was the order with my current boat but the previous two were both bought ashore without a test sail.

 

[Tranona]

I am looking to buy a boat, and have seen one that interests me. It is in the water (and has been for some time). The agent has said it cannot be taken for a test drive until I make an offer that is accepted by the seller, and have paid 10% of the price agreed. Then it has to be taken out of the water, have its bottom and outdrive pressure washed (all at my expense), and only then can it be taken for a test drive. This means I have to effectively commit to buy the boat without the opportunity to inspect the hull or underwater fittings, and without taking it for a test drive to see if the thing even works. And run the risk of losing 10% of the price (and the cost of lift out, pressure wash and relaunch) if I don't like what I see. This does not seem right, but the agent assures me it is standard practice. I should say this is my first attempt at buying a boat through a dealer, previous purchases have been private (which seemed a lot easier and far less risky). I would welcome any advice at this stage, thank you (in advance).

That is (almost) normal practice. Remember the boat is the private property of the owner, not stock of a dealer so it is not unreasonable to ask for a commitment by way of a deposit before a sea trial, the purpose of which is to confirm that it performs it the way expected, not to find out whether you like the boat. There is little risk of you losing the deposit if the boat turns out not to be as described and the contract you sign should be subject to satisfactory survey and sea trials.

It is, however, unreasonable to expect you to pay in advance for a haulout and bottom clean. The boat should be presented in a way that enables you to assess the condition and if the seller does not want to prepare it properly then he should expect a lower price. He is, however under no obligation to allow you to trial the boat without signing a contract, but he may of course do so if he thinks it would persuade you to buy. This is an area for negotiation and if he refuses to pay for the clean then it might be a signal to walk away, but equally it depends on how badly you want the boat!

 

[l'escargot]

It is not usual to take a boat for a "test drive". Offer and deposit subject to survey and sea trial would be. The survey would most probably come before the sea trial so paying for a lift for the survey would be expected.

 

[Lakesailor]

That is (almost) normal practice.

a sea trial, the purpose of which is to confirm that it performs it the way expected, not to find out whether you like the boat.

It is not usual to take a boat for a "test drive". Offer and deposit subject to survey and sea trial would be. The survey would most probably come before the sea trial so paying for a lift for the survey would be expected.

Always strikes me as a ludicrous state of affairs. It's like buying and expensive, secondhand, and very largely handbuilt car without having a drive in it to see if you even like the way it drives. Boats, are for using, not looking at.

It would seem perfectly fair to pay for fuel and perhaps time for a short voyage (to avoid the term Sea Trial and all that historically involves) to ensure that the boat suits you (and perhaps you partner) whilst under way.
Otherwise how do you assess if the boat is manageable with your proposed crew. Can you handle the sails. Is it noisy below decks if a motor boat? Does it wallow unbearably?

I regard a short voyage as precisely that "to find out whether you like the boat".

The luggage that built up around the transfer of ownership of boats has become too strictured. The choice to buy and the legal documentation should be entirely separate.

I agree that private sales are much preferable.

 

[Halo]

It seems they are not very keen to sell so OldsaltOz may be right - perhaps they are going through the motions like all those divorcing house vendors looking for a sale at prices similar to those just before the housing bubble burst.

 

[Spyro]

The broker has his rules that he will try to stick to. If you are serious about buying there is no harm in trying to contact the owner, tell him that you are serious but you would like a test sail with him in attendance and take it from there. He may say no and that the broker is handling all aspects of the sale or he might have nothing to hide and be quite happy to take you out for an hour or 2. he might live 100s of miles away and just not think it worthwhile especially if he's already had several people out for a joyride.
If you just want to know if everything works and the engine runs ok with no problems a lot of that can be checked without taking the boat out and before you have made an offer or paid a deposit. The broker should have no problem with starting the engine up while tied alongside.

 

[mbay]

I've looked at a lot of used boats recently, when viewing boats at a brokerage i didn't find any broker very helpful or wise about the full history or inventory of the boat concerned.

One boat i was interested in I asked the broker if i could see and hear the engine running, his reply was i would have to pay a 10% deposit first!! how can you make an informed decision to part with your hard earned cash if you don't know all the facts first its crazy. needless to say i walked away.

 

[Lakesailor]

One boat i was interested in I asked the broker if i could see and hear the engine running, his reply was i would have to pay a 10% deposit first!! how can you make an informed decision to part with your hard earned cash if you don't know all the facts first.

You can't.

Brokers are there to make a wedge for themselves. Some are dealing with tyre-kickers and also vendors who are not serious. However it shouldn't be the purchaser that has to carry the costs. The vendor, if he is serious should shoulder the burden,

We looked at a small business run by a husband and wife. The Sales Agents had a load of stipulations ("Don't contact direct as the staff are not aware of the sale." There were no staff!).

Most of these stipulations are placed in order to make sure they don't get cut out of the loop.

I'm sure there are many good brokers. But the mythical procedures that have built up around the selling of a boat are bonkers. It is time for some fresh air in the industry.

I certainly would walk away from any financial commitments before I was perfectly happy that the boat was what I wanted.

 

[Ripster]

Just because you are presented with a standard contract and quoted standard practise, does not mean you have to accept it. Its fine to add/change clauses if you want to, provided they are acceptable to both parties. Provided you are being reasonable with your requests, a compromise is often acheivable If you are not comfortable, its your money, so walk away.

 

[Tranona]

Always strikes me as a ludicrous state of affairs. It's like buying and expensive, secondhand, and very largely handbuilt car without having a drive in it to see if you even like the way it drives. Boats, are for using, not looking at.

It would seem perfectly fair to pay for fuel and perhaps time for a short voyage (to avoid the term Sea Trial and all that historically involves) to ensure that the boat suits you (and perhaps you partner) whilst under way.
Otherwise how do you assess if the boat is manageable with your proposed crew. Can you handle the sails. Is it noisy below decks if a motor boat? Does it wallow unbearably?

I regard a short voyage as precisely that "to find out whether you like the boat".

The luggage that built up around the transfer of ownership of boats has become too strictured. The choice to buy and the legal documentation should be entirely separate.

I agree that private sales are much preferable.

The crucial difference is that you are buying somebody's private property (whether direct or dealing with the owners agent, the broker) rather than dealing with somebody who is selling it by way of business. If you are interested in a house, would you get permission from the owner to try living in it for a period to see if you like it? Of course not - you buy what you see and use due diligence to check it is as described. Exactly the same as a private boat - you assess whether what you see suits you based on the description and your observations and then (if you wish) have a professional opinion to confirm or otherwise that it is as described.

The issue of a trial sail/test is always going to be contentious. Many boats are out of the water when offered for sale and there are almost always costs involved, particularly in powerboats, plus the risk which needs insuring against so it is not surprising that private owners are unwilling to carry this cost for the benefit of somebody who has made no commitment to buy. Of course for some these costs are low and the owner may well be prepared to take somebody out if he thought it would result in a sale. However, in most transactions at the stage of deciding whether an offer will be made, the potential buyer is an unknown. Brokers (and private sellers) will tell you about all the timewasters there are around.

The normal contract provides a framework that protects the interests of all parties. The buyer has made a commitment, the seller will not sell to another, the broker has some security over receiving his commission if the sale is completed. There is no reason why specific conditions cannot be included in the contract - for example the right to withdraw if the boat does not reach its claimed speed, or if specific undisclosed defects are found on survey so that both parties are clear about their obligations.

 

[maby]

We've been down this path twice in the last couple of years - the first time it fell through and the second is close to completion.

In each case, we were expected to put down a holding deposit before the sea trial or survey. In the first case, the boat was about five years old and we wanted a survey; in the second case, the boat was effectively new so no survey, but it was out of the water and the dealer wanted some indication of commitment before he had it launched.

On the first boat, we were expected to put down a 10% deposit before they would take us out for the sea trial or permit the boat to be lifted for a survey. We also had to pay for the lift, pressure wash and survey. Some issues arose initially during the sea trial and were supported during the survey. We asked for them to be resolved by the owner before we completed the purchase, he refused and we pulled out. We got our deposit back but were probably close to a thousand out of pocket by the time we had paid the lift, survey and our travelling expenses to see the boat - had to take it on the nose, I'm afraid.

The second case was effectively a new boat - just the dealer's demonstrator and coming with a full new-boat warranty. We viewed it in the boat yard where it had been stored for the winter, decided that we probably wanted it and asked for a sea trial. The dealer asked for a "holding deposit" which was a fair bit less than 10% as an indication of commitment since he was going to have to get it launched in order to give us the sea trial. That went well and we are in the final stages of closing the purchase.

We had a look at another demonstrator a couple of months ago and were taken out on a sea trial without any requirement for a deposit - but the boat was already in the water and needed no work to make it ready for use.

 

[capsco]

Just because you are presented with a standard contract and quoted standard practise, does not mean you have to accept it. Its fine to add/change clauses if you want to, provided they are acceptable to both parties. Provided you are being reasonable with your requests, a compromise is often acheivable If you are not comfortable, its your money, so walk away.

This is the way to go.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I did things a little differently, but it worked because my boat is a well-known and relatively common model; a Moody 31.

I saw the boat I eventually bought on the hard. Internally she was what I wanted, she was in good order, the lines and reputation were good, and of course, I was having a full survey. Rather than have a trial sail in the boat I bought, though, I was able to arrange a sail in an identical (next hull number!) vessel owned by an aquaintance of my brother. This confirmed that the handling etc. was what I wanted - not that I'd been in much doubt. Of course, that avoided the costs of lifting in and out. Naturally, the contract was subject to survey; there were some issues on the survey that the vendor and I were able to negotiate a suitable settlement on (we went 50/50 on most of them).

I'd suggest that if the boat is a well-known type, with plenty of examples around, then a trial sail on the vessel you intend to buy may not be necessary, and that it may well be possible, as I did, to have a sail on a sister-ship to satisfy the question of "Do I like this boat?"

 

[maby]

I did things a little differently, but it worked because my boat is a well-known and relatively common model; a Moody 31.

...

I'd suggest that if the boat is a well-known type, with plenty of examples around, then a trial sail on the vessel you intend to buy may not be necessary, and that it may well be possible, as I did, to have a sail on a sister-ship to satisfy the question of "Do I like this boat?"

Indeed - that is, after all, what dealers' demonstrators are for!