oakleyb
Well-Known Member
I thinking of buying a small butane heater for occasional use - Would you use Butane as a heat source. Also Argos seem to sell Fire extinguishers at a much more reasonable cost = are they any good for use on boat
Butane on Boats
- Thread starter oakleyb
- Start date
captainslarty
N/A
Fire extinguishers are no worries.. never buy marine branded ones.. get the cheapest. get plenty...
Re butane, if you are talking about a self contained unit, the only downside really is the water produced, for every kg of butane you produce 1 ltr of water to condense.
On the for sale forum I have a propex heater unit that acts as central heating, the water product goes out of the exhaust, so only a dry heat left.
Joe
Re butane, if you are talking about a self contained unit, the only downside really is the water produced, for every kg of butane you produce 1 ltr of water to condense.
On the for sale forum I have a propex heater unit that acts as central heating, the water product goes out of the exhaust, so only a dry heat left.
Joe
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Camping Gaz and Calor are both mostly butane, so that's what the majority use. The question really is what type of heater? Try a search of the forums, this is a question that has come up many times.
Same goes for the fire extinguisher one. I see no reason why an Argos one would be no good, but you have to decide whether you want a powder extinguisher for your main firefighting tool, how big, etc. This has also been featured many times, especially under 'Lidl' and 'Aldi'.
Same goes for the fire extinguisher one. I see no reason why an Argos one would be no good, but you have to decide whether you want a powder extinguisher for your main firefighting tool, how big, etc. This has also been featured many times, especially under 'Lidl' and 'Aldi'.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Usual warnings about carbon Monoxide etc with any open heater will apply to a portable heater. Get a detector as well - also cheap from Argos B&Q etc
pelicanpete
Well-Known Member
Butane freezes at 0C/32F so if you need it in very cold conditions propane may be a better option (it doesn't freeze at zero C). Butane is more efficient at producing heat than propane.
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Butane freezes at 0C/32F so if you need it in very cold conditions propane may be a better option (it doesn't freeze at zero C). Butane is more efficient at producing heat than propane.
[/ QUOTE ] Well actually butane freezes at -138C. More relevant is the fact that it boils at -2C which means that butane is not useable at temperatures lower than a few degrees above 0C. Propane however boils at -45C so remains useable down to arctic temperatures.
Both butane and propane will burn at 100% efficiency but there is a difference in their calorific values which are 49.3MJ/kg and 50.0MJ/kg respectively (or 21,200Btu/lb and 21,500Btu/lb if you prefer) This means that on a weight for weight basis propane produces very slightly more heat, but for our purposes the difference is not significant IMHO.
Returning to the original question any portable heater releases a lot of water vapour into the cabin. 1kg of butane produces over 1.5kg of water vapour, potentially 1.5 litres of condensation. 1kg of propane produces over 1.6kg of water vapour. Both figures rather more than previously quoted.
If ventillation is restricted not only will you get condensation of this water but you run the risk of producing carbon monoxide!
A portable heater means that the gas bottle is brought into the cabin along with the hazards associated with that.
Butane freezes at 0C/32F so if you need it in very cold conditions propane may be a better option (it doesn't freeze at zero C). Butane is more efficient at producing heat than propane.
[/ QUOTE ] Well actually butane freezes at -138C. More relevant is the fact that it boils at -2C which means that butane is not useable at temperatures lower than a few degrees above 0C. Propane however boils at -45C so remains useable down to arctic temperatures.
Both butane and propane will burn at 100% efficiency but there is a difference in their calorific values which are 49.3MJ/kg and 50.0MJ/kg respectively (or 21,200Btu/lb and 21,500Btu/lb if you prefer) This means that on a weight for weight basis propane produces very slightly more heat, but for our purposes the difference is not significant IMHO.
Returning to the original question any portable heater releases a lot of water vapour into the cabin. 1kg of butane produces over 1.5kg of water vapour, potentially 1.5 litres of condensation. 1kg of propane produces over 1.6kg of water vapour. Both figures rather more than previously quoted.
If ventillation is restricted not only will you get condensation of this water but you run the risk of producing carbon monoxide!
A portable heater means that the gas bottle is brought into the cabin along with the hazards associated with that.
pelicanpete
Well-Known Member
Point is Butane does not change from its liquefied state to gas vapour when the temperature is lower than 0C. It may not technically 'freeze' per se but at freezing point at atmospheric pressure it is useless. Propane ain't, which is the point being made.
In some European countries (e.g. Germany) they fill their gas bottles with a mixture of Propane and Butane so they can be used in sub-zero temperatures.
If the gentleman who asked the Q. tries to light his butane heater in a cabin where the temperature is lower that freezing he will be disappointed, hence my helpful reply to his question in simple terms that everyone can comprehend without the technical, "look how much I know", type of answer...IMHO.
In some European countries (e.g. Germany) they fill their gas bottles with a mixture of Propane and Butane so they can be used in sub-zero temperatures.
If the gentleman who asked the Q. tries to light his butane heater in a cabin where the temperature is lower that freezing he will be disappointed, hence my helpful reply to his question in simple terms that everyone can comprehend without the technical, "look how much I know", type of answer...IMHO.
damo
Well-Known Member
"without the technical, "look how much I know", type of answer..."
I am afraid I'm with Vic on this one - why not use the correct terminology? There is a fundamental difference between a liquid freezing and not vaporising, so why encourage ignorance? And it does matter - if someone experiences the problem we are talking about and thinks "I can feel the butane sloshing in the tank, so it can't be frozen, so the problem must be something else...".
I am not attacking you personally on this, but the impression given by that kind of incorrect terminology is that the poster doesn't know enough about the topic, so I would tend to disregard their advice.
I am afraid I'm with Vic on this one - why not use the correct terminology? There is a fundamental difference between a liquid freezing and not vaporising, so why encourage ignorance? And it does matter - if someone experiences the problem we are talking about and thinks "I can feel the butane sloshing in the tank, so it can't be frozen, so the problem must be something else...".
I am not attacking you personally on this, but the impression given by that kind of incorrect terminology is that the poster doesn't know enough about the topic, so I would tend to disregard their advice.
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Point is Butane does not change from its liquefied state to gas vapour when the temperature is lower than 0C. It may not technically 'freeze' ............................. helpful reply to his question in simple terms that everyone can comprehend without the technical, "look how much I know", type of answer...IMHO
[/ QUOTE ] Sorry "facts is facts" what you said viz "butane freezes at 0C" was simply rubbish no matter what meaning you intended to convey but you are entitled to your HO.
It is not a question "look how much I know". I do not carry a comprehensive list of melting and boiling points around in my brain, although there is a heavyweight book of chemical and physical data on the shelf above me which was the source of the freezing point of butane ( n-butane )
In this instance the other figures relating to both (commercial) butane and propane including the calorific values were sourced quite easily on line. For future reference perhaps you would like to make a note of this page of the LP Gas Association website:
http://www.lpga.co.uk/TypicalPropofCommercialLPG.htm
which I am quite happy to acknowledge as the source of my information and to which I should have referred in my post.
To fully complete the melting and freezing point data for butane and propane as an exercise to show "how easily I can look this stuff up"
Propane ..................................... mpt -190C, bpt -42C
n-Butane (butane) ...................... mpt -138C, bpt -0.5C
iso-butane (2-methylpropane) ....... mpt -160C, bpt -12C
Commercial butane is a mixture of n-butane and iso-butane
All the above can easily be found online in Kaye and Laby Online on the National Physical Laboratory website
http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/
Many will remember the book originally compiled by Dr. Kaye and Dr. Laby and first published in 1911, from their schooldays
One thing I have learnt is that if you are going to quote facts on here then check 'em first otherwise some knowall twat will correct you.
Apologies to all the other knowall twats for any errors in the above. It should not be used for navigation! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Point is Butane does not change from its liquefied state to gas vapour when the temperature is lower than 0C. It may not technically 'freeze' ............................. helpful reply to his question in simple terms that everyone can comprehend without the technical, "look how much I know", type of answer...IMHO
[/ QUOTE ] Sorry "facts is facts" what you said viz "butane freezes at 0C" was simply rubbish no matter what meaning you intended to convey but you are entitled to your HO.
It is not a question "look how much I know". I do not carry a comprehensive list of melting and boiling points around in my brain, although there is a heavyweight book of chemical and physical data on the shelf above me which was the source of the freezing point of butane ( n-butane )
In this instance the other figures relating to both (commercial) butane and propane including the calorific values were sourced quite easily on line. For future reference perhaps you would like to make a note of this page of the LP Gas Association website:
http://www.lpga.co.uk/TypicalPropofCommercialLPG.htm
which I am quite happy to acknowledge as the source of my information and to which I should have referred in my post.
To fully complete the melting and freezing point data for butane and propane as an exercise to show "how easily I can look this stuff up"
Propane ..................................... mpt -190C, bpt -42C
n-Butane (butane) ...................... mpt -138C, bpt -0.5C
iso-butane (2-methylpropane) ....... mpt -160C, bpt -12C
Commercial butane is a mixture of n-butane and iso-butane
All the above can easily be found online in Kaye and Laby Online on the National Physical Laboratory website
http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/
Many will remember the book originally compiled by Dr. Kaye and Dr. Laby and first published in 1911, from their schooldays
One thing I have learnt is that if you are going to quote facts on here then check 'em first otherwise some knowall twat will correct you.
Apologies to all the other knowall twats for any errors in the above. It should not be used for navigation! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Before getting too hung up on freezing points, liquefaction points, etc. of various molecular structures of butane, in more than 20 years of boat ownership my gas has failed to light at the stove about three times. Each time it happened was inland in Holland, in what would be exceptionally cold conditions in a marine environment. In each case all that was required to solve the problem was to warm the top of the bottle by hand for a few minutes, which released enough gas to boil a kettle. The resulting hot water was poured over the bottle, solving the problem for the rest of the day.
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The resulting hot water was poured over the bottle
[/ QUOTE ] Done it while camping. Heated the water in the evening before the temp fell below freezing, and filled a couple of Thermos flasks to empty over the gas bottle in order to cook breakfast next morning. First and last time we ever camped at Easter!
The resulting hot water was poured over the bottle
[/ QUOTE ] Done it while camping. Heated the water in the evening before the temp fell below freezing, and filled a couple of Thermos flasks to empty over the gas bottle in order to cook breakfast next morning. First and last time we ever camped at Easter!
Vara
Well-Known Member
When using camping gaz in cold climes, the procedure was to pee one one cylinder, burner at low, put another cylinder and burner on top and cook on that.(small hand sized gaz).
Only slightly hazardous!
On a boat if your surrounded by liquid water, a bucket of same poured into gas locker usually frees things up enough to have a cuppa.
Only had to do this once in UK.
Only slightly hazardous!
On a boat if your surrounded by liquid water, a bucket of same poured into gas locker usually frees things up enough to have a cuppa.
Only had to do this once in UK.
