Burying time expired flares

[Woodlouse]

.
So I'll bury them then . . .

- W

Was that the answer? Or is it better to bury your epirb?

 

[maxi77]

Lasers were designed to aid identification in land based situations
A plane flying over a forest clearing could easily see a laser whereas a flare may well cause a massive fire
Red or green lights are easy to disinguish on a hillside or somewhere on land where there are no other distractions
A laser used horizontally from a boat rolling in a big sea near other navigation buoys etc is a different scenario. holding it steady would also cause some difficulty.
a life boat would be at a different angle to a ( say) helicopter or plane or even a search team on a hill surveying a valley area
also it would stand out more to others on the land if it could be seen as an unusual flash
a red flashing light at sea viewed from the land is totally different & would , often as not, be ignored
a parachute flare (or projectile fired upwards) on the other hand would certainly appear unusual to the casual observer & raise some sense of awareness that something was different

Lasers certainly were not developed for rescue purposes though they have many very valid commercial, medical and military uses. The cynic in me suggests the 'rescue flare' was born out of a desire to find a premium use for the large quantities of cheap laser diodes coming out of China. Having had a quick troll through google on rescue lasers most seem to be little more than very expensive pointers. Equally very little of the publicity material makes any comment on the risk to eyesight from careless use.

 

[webcraft]

Aye, bury them 6in deep and light a bonfire on top.

End of problem.

Is there not a danger of the parachute flares shooting off into the distance ?

- W

 

[lustyd]

Not yet. I haven't quite been seduced by PLBs yet, preferring to stick religiously to a clip-on habit.

That would drive me insane, never being on deck without being clipped on. Or did you mean you clip on when you think you might fall overboard?

 

[lustyd]

I'm not against them at all. They serve a valuable purpose, I am against disregarding flares as obsolete though despite the ability of other aids to pin point your position. Regardless of technology the most effective tool in search and rescue is still the mk1 eyeball and I think most performing a search would much rather home in on a flare than follow a radio bearing.

I don't think I ever said they were obsolete and I don't think I said nobody should carry flares. From my perspective what I said was that the current generation of electronic aids were better than flares because the electronics actively ask for help whereas the flares passively hope that help will notice them. I said that carrying out of date flares was daft due to risk - the people who make them and test them agree with me and have seen fit to put an expiry date on them for your safety. I said that someone who can't work out how to dispose of flares shouldn't be allowed to navigate a boat (sorry Webby, no offence intended but the information and help is out there). I said it was irresponsible to bury flares given how easy it is to ask the bomb disposal guys to come and get them.

I said a lot of things that may have been contrary to popular opinion but I don't think I ever said flares were obsolete or that carrying them in the right circumstances was a bad idea. Once you have a PLB, GMDSS VHF and the training to use both, and have the PLB securely attached to your person whether you think you'll be onboard or not then and only then should you consider spending hundreds on flares. And even then, you should have a disposal plan before buying flares whether they are new or a replacement.

I also never said I was 100% certain electronics would summon help, but the active "help me here and now" nature of them gives me more confidence than fireworks in the sky.

 

[PilotWolf]

Really, their EPIRB, PLB, handheld VHF all had failed at the same time as their onboard ones? Or perhaps you're using an example of someone who didn't have these things, or hadn't looked after them to justify your argument?

No, they chose not to operate the EPIRB, I don't know if they had a PLB. However as their battery was flat they had no GPS and the position they passed via phone was about 6 miles from XXX - infact they were closer to 10. Her handheld was also flat.

As for the the previous reply - I typed a long response, as a GMDSS operator but managed to lose it and can't be bothered to retype it. But you understandings of GMDSS and electronic alerting are seriously flawed and proven by your reply. Please read the manuals and some guides to the system in case you need to use it.

PW.

 

[doug748]

Is there not a danger of the parachute flares shooting off into the distance ?
- W

I guess I can't give you an answer with 100% clarity, or even seriously suggest that's what you do, but this bloke I know did all his handhelds last year without problem.

If anyone were to think it a good idea to lay them down flat, in tight trench, well below ground, any airshow seems unlikely.

I think you could argue it is more reponsible to destroy them rather than leaving them to, perhaps, become unstable.

 

[MinorSwing]

.
Am considering burying a tin box full of severely time expired flares six feet down in a field.

Can anyone realistically see any problems with this?

- W

Can you take mine as well please?

 

[JumbleDuck]

That would drive me insane, never being on deck without being clipped on. Or did you mean you clip on when you think you might fall overboard?

I clip on if I am the only person on deck, at night, in rough conditions or when I feel like it. Which is most of the time, because I have found that after a while it's as natural to clip on as it is to do up the seatbelt in a car. PLBs, flares and so on are all very well, but nothing beats "not going overboard in the first place".

 

[lustyd]

No, they chose not to operate the EPIRB, I don't know if they had a PLB. However as their battery was flat they had no GPS and the position they passed via phone was about 6 miles from XXX - infact they were closer to 10. Her handheld was also flat.

As for the the previous reply - I typed a long response, as a GMDSS operator but managed to lose it and can't be bothered to retype it. But you understandings of GMDSS and electronic alerting are seriously flawed and proven by your reply. Please read the manuals and some guides to the system in case you need to use it.

PW.

you'll need to give a hint at least as to which bit is flawed before I bother rereading everything based on someone on the internet telling me I don't understand something I'm confident I do.

 

[lustyd]

I clip on if I am the only person on deck, at night, in rough conditions or when I feel like it. Which is most of the time, because I have found that after a while it's as natural to clip on as it is to do up the seatbelt in a car. PLBs, flares and so on are all very well, but nothing beats "not going overboard in the first place".

lol well it sounds like you have all aspects covered then except all the times you could trip or fall or be knocked overboard while not wearing the line. PLBs are actually small enough to wear all the time, even if you leave the LJ indoors and are only wearing shorts and these days cost less than a decent flare box, hence my preference as a single hander to have a PLB so that when the autotiller decides that it wants to carry on without me I at least have a chance.

 

[PilotWolf]

you'll need to give a hint at least as to which bit is flawed before I bother rereading everything based on someone on the internet telling me I don't understand something I'm confident I do.

- GMDSS data bursts?! Assume you are talking of DSC?
- Polling VHF radios?
- DSC alerts transposing on to plotters?
- aircraft abilities to deal with a 121.5 alert (excepting SAR aircraft), if they even have the volume turned up. The delays of ATC in dealing with the report.
- the operational limits of GMDSS equipment - especially that of leisure vs commercial equipment.
- the back up battery requirements of GMDSS equipped vessels. As you chose to ignore all my references to the need of power for GPS/radios/etc.
- 121.5 is not routinely monitored. Many vessels (especially leisure ones) cannot direction find - all can see a flare.
- many here admit to not using the VHF at all.
- 406 EPIRB is NOT immediate. You may have just missed a satellite pass. So potentially substantially longer than a 999 call.
- having helmed to flares they did not destroy my night vision anymore than the search lights and working lights on scene.
- Do they laser flares work in daylight? Flares do.
- of course there is the user error issue - how many post here asking about how to change/set MMSI numbers? How many of the units are set up correctly or tested?
- You belief of 10m accuracy of GPS. My last command was a survey vessel with high accuracy, calibrated GPS systems - there was regularly in excess of 5 or 10 m difference between the different receivers even when docked and not moving.

PW

 

[penfold]

I don't think I ever said they were obsolete and I don't think I said nobody should carry flares. From my perspective what I said was that the current generation of electronic aids were better than flares because the electronics actively ask for help whereas the flares passively hope that help will notice them. I said that carrying out of date flares was daft due to risk - the people who make them and test them agree with me and have seen fit to put an expiry date on them for your safety. I said that someone who can't work out how to dispose of flares shouldn't be allowed to navigate a boat (sorry Webby, no offence intended but the information and help is out there). I said it was irresponsible to bury flares given how easy it is to ask the bomb disposal guys to come and get them.

The expiry date is mostly about the manufacturer warranting the performance of the device with respect to colour temperature, brightness/intensity and duration of burn, which will be set to meet whatever standard(SOLAS mainly, although I guess there will be a BS or EN standard too). My experience of out-of-date devices is that all three characteristics will be notably adrift if they are a few years OOD; reds will be pale or almost white, poor brightness and the loss of up to 50% of the burn time.

 

[penfold]

.
So I'll bury them then . . .

- W

Are you coming anywhere near Helensburgh in the near future?

 

[lustyd]

- GMDSS data bursts?! Assume you are talking of DSC?
- Polling VHF radios?
- DSC alerts transposing on to plotters?
- aircraft abilities to deal with a 121.5 alert (excepting SAR aircraft), if they even have the volume turned up. The delays of ATC in dealing with the report.
- the operational limits of GMDSS equipment - especially that of leisure vs commercial equipment.
- the back up battery requirements of GMDSS equipped vessels. As you chose to ignore all my references to the need of power for GPS/radios/etc.
- 121.5 is not routinely monitored. Many vessels (especially leisure ones) cannot direction find - all can see a flare.
- many here admit to not using the VHF at all.
- 406 EPIRB is NOT immediate. You may have just missed a satellite pass. So potentially substantially longer than a 999 call.
- having helmed to flares they did not destroy my night vision anymore than the search lights and working lights on scene.
- Do they laser flares work in daylight? Flares do.
- of course there is the user error issue - how many post here asking about how to change/set MMSI numbers? How many of the units are set up correctly or tested?
- You belief of 10m accuracy of GPS. My last command was a survey vessel with high accuracy, calibrated GPS systems - there was regularly in excess of 5 or 10 m difference between the different receivers even when docked and not moving.

PW

DSC is part of GMDSS yes, and it bursts the data in short packets to drastically reduce transmission time as well as allow airtime to be better used.
Yes, read your manual you can poll a DSC set for position, I've done this between my handheld and fixed set many times.
Again read your manual, DSC data can be output to a plotter via NMEA very easily.
The MRCCs often ask commercial aircraft to do flyovers and use their 121.5 MHz equipment, this widely reported.
No, 121.5 MHz is no longer monitored, but it is used for direction finding when used as a homing beacon. A very small amount of research will show you this.
I never said EPIRB was immediate. Many here have implied that flares are though. EPIRB and PLB have the advantage that they are actively asking someone specific for help. That help may take time but your flare may not even have been seen.
I never mentioned laser flares?
Yes user error is a big issue, your post shows just how little a lot of people know, even those who claim expert knowledge.
10m is the current quoted accuracy of GPS. Call it calibrated if you like but they all use the same signals which all have the same accuracy unless aided by a ground station. The newer satellite based systems will be accurate to 1m. My plotter is able to place me in a specific berth at most marinas so I'm happy to believe a 10m accuracy even if you're not.

 

[PilotWolf]

DSC is part of GMDSS yes, and it bursts the data in short packets to drastically reduce transmission time as well as allow airtime to be better used.
Yes, read your manual you can poll a DSC set for position, I've done this between my handheld and fixed set many times.
Again read your manual, DSC data can be output to a plotter via NMEA very easily.
The MRCCs often ask commercial aircraft to do flyovers and use their 121.5 MHz equipment, this widely reported.
No, 121.5 MHz is no longer monitored, but it is used for direction finding when used as a homing beacon. A very small amount of research will show you this.
I never said EPIRB was immediate. Many here have implied that flares are though. EPIRB and PLB have the advantage that they are actively asking someone specific for help. That help may take time but your flare may not even have been seen.
I never mentioned laser flares?
Yes user error is a big issue, your post shows just how little a lot of people know, even those who claim expert knowledge.
10m is the current quoted accuracy of GPS. Call it calibrated if you like but they all use the same signals which all have the same accuracy unless aided by a ground station. The newer satellite based systems will be accurate to 1m. My plotter is able to place me in a specific berth at most marinas so I'm happy to believe a 10m accuracy even if you're not.

- I am aware that DSC is a (small) part of GMDSS but you are interchanging one for the other - which is WRONG!
- So you are saying that you can 'ask' your handheld to tell its position from your fixed set? Please tell me what sets you own - most units capable of advanced features are separate units not found on non compliant vessels and out of the price of the leisure market who complain at the £150 (?) cost of flares.
- just because it can be done done doesn't mean it is. I have not worked on any vessel where DSC transmissions are plotted on the nav system - including the RNLI and some high end technologically advanced ones that were 'beta testers' for some major navigational systems/software.
- I am aware that 121.5 is a homing frequency (and 'guard' for aircraft). It is not monitored by maritime facilities, few vessels have the ability to DF it. So who is going to hear your PLB if they are not looking for it? As far as I am aware an MRCC cannot talk directly with non SAR aircraft. (Yes I have a commercial pilots licence as well). As for fly overs? I think you have been watching too many movies.
- quoted GPS accuracy? By whom? The manufactures? The retailers? Our DGPS were calibrated as to antenna positions/heights on board and using a private known fixed shore installation that allowed tidal height corrections. It is a radio wave and subject to errors. Just for reference the last contract was for UKHMO so accuracy was a priority.

I notice that you are STILL ignoring the power requirement issue...

PW

 

[lustyd]

- I am aware that DSC is a (small) part of GMDSS but you are interchanging one for the other - which is WRONG!
- So you are saying that you can 'ask' your handheld to tell its position from your fixed set? Please tell me what sets you own - most units capable of advanced features are separate units not found on non compliant vessels and out of the price of the leisure market who complain at the £150 (?) cost of flares.
- just because it can be done done doesn't mean it is. I have not worked on any vessel where DSC transmissions are plotted on the nav system - including the RNLI and some high end technologically advanced ones that were 'beta testers' for some major navigational systems/software.
- I am aware that 121.5 is a homing frequency (and 'guard' for aircraft). It is not monitored by maritime facilities, few vessels have the ability to DF it. So who is going to hear your PLB if they are not looking for it? As far as I am aware an MRCC cannot talk directly with non SAR aircraft. (Yes I have a commercial pilots licence as well). As for fly overs? I think you have been watching too many movies.
- quoted GPS accuracy? By whom? The manufactures? The retailers? Our DGPS were calibrated as to antenna positions/heights on board and using a private known fixed shore installation that allowed tidal height corrections. It is a radio wave and subject to errors. Just for reference the last contract was for UKHMO so accuracy was a priority.

I notice that you are STILL ignoring the power requirement issue...

PW

Yes my standard horizon kit allows position requests, as I said I've done it many times. Perhaps you're getting confused with the broadcast requests the coastguard do? I meant individual requests.
I'm ignoring the power issue because its not an issue! As another poster said, batteries and flares are both chemically stored energy so to accept one as reliable and the other not is odd to say the least.
As for calibration, yachts don't really need this as they will be at sea level and are not long enough usually for it to be an issue. Your calibration is not for accuracy so much as for knowing where on the vessel the unit is. The reason you had to do this was because of the 10m accuracy of GPS making a clear difference between bow and stern, not to improve accuracy.

 

[PilotWolf]

Yes my standard horizon kit allows position requests, as I said I've done it many times. Perhaps you're getting confused with the broadcast requests the coastguard do? I meant individual requests.
I'm ignoring the power issue because its not an issue! As another poster said, batteries and flares are both chemically stored energy so to accept one as reliable and the other not is odd to say the least.
As for calibration, yachts don't really need this as they will be at sea level and are not long enough usually for it to be an issue. Your calibration is not for accuracy so much as for knowing where on the vessel the unit is. The reason you had to do this was because of the 10m accuracy of GPS making a clear difference between bow and stern, not to improve accuracy.

- So which SH equipment is this?
- I am not confused at all, thank you. However I have no idea what you mean by CG broadcast requests - just like your other misunderstandings of phrases/equipment/terminology.
- You ARE ignoring the power issue. Flares do not need to be charged and will still work underwater or if have been submerged, they are self contained and require no electrical input AKA stored chemical energy. Or maybe you are saying the requirement to have a back up battery for GMDSS vessels is a waste of time and pointless?
- My vessel was also at sea level - most boats are - the antennas are not. The calibration IS for accuracy - charting depths etc is meaningless unless referenced to a fixed point. The fact that GPS is a radio receiver does not change despite what you believe or the retailer wants you to believe.

PW

 

[JumbleDuck]

lol well it sounds like you have all aspects covered then except all the times you could trip or fall or be knocked overboard while not wearing the line. PLBs are actually small enough to wear all the time, even if you leave the LJ indoors and are only wearing shorts and these days cost less than a decent flare box, hence my preference as a single hander to have a PLB so that when the autotiller decides that it wants to carry on without me I at least have a chance.

I'm waiting for an affordable combined AIS/EPIRB type PLB.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The reason you had to do this was because of the 10m accuracy of GPS making a clear difference between bow and stern, not to improve accuracy.

The calibration IS for accuracy

In which case can you explain the calibration process? Assuming you're not merely talking about WAAS or DGPS a lot of forumites, myself included, may not be aware of it.