Burying time expired flares

[JumbleDuck]

You'd have to give me a for instance on it being better to hope a local sees a flare and acts on it in the 30 seconds its there than a signal that specifically says to a trained professional to come and look or a signal telling other boats and harbours you're in trouble. If the local sees the flare they might tell the boys to come get you. When the mrcc gets the signal they will tell the boys to come get you and exactly where you are.

The electronic signal is good as well. But if I bang off a flare in the Sound Of Luing, there is a good chance that a local will see and get to me a long time before the boys from Oban, Tobermory or Port Askaig can come and look for the wreckage.

Well there's the instance you mentioned earlier as a start...

That one was being used and misfired. Are you really claiming that flares, when operated, are as likely to explode as to work properly? Because if there is evidence to support that assertion, I am very surprised that Pains-Wessex, Schermuly and the rest are able to stay in business. I have myself fired off three handheld reds in anger - by your reckoning I missed an 87.5% chance of an explosion!

 

[Woodlouse]

You'd have to give me a for instance on it being better to hope a local sees a flare and acts on it in the 30 seconds its there than a signal that specifically says to a trained professional to come and look or a signal telling other boats and harbours you're in trouble. If the local sees the flare they might tell the boys to come get you. When the mrcc gets the signal they will tell the boys to come get you and exactly where you are.

I saw the military let off a white flare, at two in the morning about 20 miles off Portland bill a few weeks back. A less than two minutes later the coastguard were calling them on the VHF saying they'd received a 999 call reporting a white flare and could they account for it. And that was just a white flare. Had it been red I'd have been on to the coast guard and would have headed in it's direction too.

An Epirb or PLB being set off does not result in an instant search and rescue. They do a lot of ringing around first to try and ascertain whether it's genuine or not.

 

[Woodlouse]

Well there's the instance you mentioned earlier as a start...

There's only been one well reported incident of a flare misfiring in recent history. It was one flare, of one batch that was recalled immediately afterwards.

Personally I've not heard of another incident like that and I don't think anyone has heard of flares going off on their own.

 

[Rum_Pirate]

Wrap them up in a box like a nice present.

Leave them on the back seat of your car, parked outside a MacDonalds, with the window left open.

You then have an extended coffee break sitting in the widow in MacDonalds.


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PS Not recommended the scrote will dump them an a young child could be injured.

 

[trapezeartist]

You'd have to give me a for instance on it being better to hope a local sees a flare and acts on it in the 30 seconds its there than a signal that specifically says to a trained professional to come and look or a signal telling other boats and harbours you're in trouble. If the local sees the flare they might tell the boys to come get you. When the mrcc gets the signal they will tell the boys to come get you and exactly where you are.

For instance:
We were sailing out of Plymouth towards Salcombe this June when the helm thought he saw a flare. We were still discussing on-board whether he was hallucinating when Channel 16 piped up, "Any vessel in the vicinity of Wembury Bay. We have received reports of a red flare."

Having been very cynical of flares and not carrying any on board, this is the incident that has changed my mind. I'm not going mad, but I will have a small pack of flares on board next year.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I've seen a red para twice. Once, ashore I 999'd the CG. "Thank you sir, It's already been reported.

Second time, afloat, pretty much mid Channel, Ch 16 was reporting it before I'd even been able to take a bearing on it.

Red paras work, instantly, unless you are somewhere very remote or blue water, when a EPIRB is almost certainly better.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Having been very cynical of flares and not carrying any on board, this is the incident that has changed my mind. I'm not going mad, but I will have a small pack of flares on board next year.

I have heard a lifeboat heading for a yacht in trouble on a dark and stormy night ask the crew to fire off a red handheld to help them locate her.

 

[Ariadne]

I took a load of very long time expired flares (dripping gue and smelling odd) to the local plod (a big Plod station, near a small docks who have a firearms section!) for safe and responsible disposal. They told me to take them away and get out of the building or I could be arrested! They were not very polite about it either. When I tried to explain that if I took them to the local footy ground around the corner, they would take them off me no problem, they went ballistic and threatened me with arrest and incarceration under the Terrorist Act, the tossers!

Luckily for me, there was an MCA cutter in the docks who took them off me, and handed them very quickly to the local TA station for disposal.

The last lot I disposed of mid Atlantic with no problems.

 

[penfold]

Six feet under?

Could fill the box with water first. I reckon they will be pretty inert after a few years underground.

- W

Not really, the pyro content(or at least the igniter part) will be destabilised and any metal casings will corrode; if they are then dried out(as might happen if someone digs them up) there's a risk of them spontaneously igniting.

If you can get them to me(near Helensburgh) I'll set them off on Nov 5th.

 

[lustyd]

I have heard a lifeboat heading for a yacht in trouble on a dark and stormy night ask the crew to fire off a red handheld to help them locate her.

Presumably because the yacht didn't have the homing beacon built into AIS and hadn't used the GMDSS radio for position reporting. I'd take rescue over search and rescue any day.

 

[lustyd]

There's only been one well reported incident of a flare misfiring in recent history. It was one flare, of one batch that was recalled immediately afterwards.

Personally I've not heard of another incident like that and I don't think anyone has heard of flares going off on their own.

What I said was that the liklihood of needing flares is almost as rare as them going wrong. I can remember three incidents reported on the forum where flares didn't work or exploded and a handful where they had been used. I can't think of a single instance where they have been used where a mayday with DSS, epirb or PLB wouldn't have been at least as good if not better. Yes the man on the shore may see you and may even be bright enough to know it's a flare but he's not in a boat so his helpfulness is limited to telling the same person that I'm certain a PLB or VHF will reach.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Presumably because the yacht didn't have the homing beacon built into AIS and hadn't used the GMDSS radio for position reporting. I'd take rescue over search and rescue any day.

Or just maybe he had all the gizmology but it hadn't worked. Electronic stuff has a habit of doing that, certainly more frequently than flares have a habit of misfunctioning.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have heard a lifeboat heading for a yacht in trouble on a dark and stormy night ask the crew to fire off a red handheld to help them locate her.

As confirmation of that . I was asked by the lifeboat to do so when they were looking for me in a similar situation.
Trouble being that i was so ill i could not get to them
I now carry a small box of 10 mini flares in my jacket pocket which are in a plastic case

 

[lustyd]

Or just maybe he had all the gizmology but it hadn't worked. Electronic stuff has a habit of doing that, certainly more frequently than flares have a habit of misfunctioning.

Curious, I've not heard a single account of all electronics on a yacht giving up including the handheld PLB and VHF devices. Perhaps I'm just living a sheltered life again.

 

[PilotWolf]

Presumably because the yacht didn't have the homing beacon built into AIS and hadn't used the GMDSS radio for position reporting. I'd take rescue over search and rescue any day.

- I don't know of any AIS systems with built in homing beacons.
- Radios/GPS require power - batteries tend to be in bilges and low down on boats, they tend to stop working quickly when flooded. Is your 5 watt handheld going to last long enough or be powerful enough to summon help? Did you charge the batteries?
- DF bearings require a transmission to lock on to. Do you really want to be sat there holding the microphone key in? Also see point about batteries above. There are also various errors that are easily induced especially with older equipment.
- A flare is an instant aiming point for a (lifeboat) helm, a bearing needs to be relayed to the helm who then probably needs to look at the compass.
- EPIRBs require servicing, batteries need replacement, the hydrostat release time expires (in case you don't have time to release it), you're soon near the 4 yearly cost of the flares.
- 121.5 isn't monitored anymore nor gives a position. 406 may take a couple of hours to be detected - still want to be in the water waiting?

The misunderstandings of the technological options people are trying to justify not carrying flares is worrying.

Curious, I've not heard a single account of all electronics on a yacht giving up including the handheld PLB and VHF devices. Perhaps I'm just living a sheltered life again.

I have. On more than one occasion, the most recent in the middle of the English Channel TSS about 2 years ago, they had managed to get a mobile phone call to the coast guard via a passing cruise ship's onboard mobile 'cell' before that went flat. We found them as a small commercial vessel about an hour before sunset.

PW

 

[lustyd]

- I don't know of any AIS systems with built in homing beacons.
- Radios/GPS require power - batteries tend to be in bilges and low down on boats, they tend to stop working quickly when flooded. Is your 5 watt handheld going to last long enough or be powerful enough to summon help? Did you charge the batteries?
- DF bearings require a transmission to lock on to. Do you really want to be sat there holding the microphone key in? Also see point about batteries above. There are also various errors that are easily induced especially with older equipment.
- A flare is an instant aiming point for a (lifeboat) helm, a bearing needs to be relayed to the helm who then probably needs to look at the compass.
- EPIRBs require servicing, batteries need replacement, the hydrostat release time expires (in case you don't have time to release it), you're soon near the 4 yearly cost of the flares.
- 121.5 isn't monitored anymore nor gives a position. 406 may take a couple of hours to be detected - still want to be in the water waiting?

The misunderstandings of the technological options people are trying to justify not carrying flares is worrying.



I have. On more than one occasion, the most recent in the middle of the English Channel TSS about 2 years ago, they had managed to get a mobile phone call to the coast guard via a passing cruise ship's onboard mobile 'cell' before that went flat. We found them as a small commercial vessel about an hour before sunset.

PW

Sorry I meant PLB not AIS.
Yes, my handheld is always charged and lasts for many days, GMDSS is designed to be low power with short data bursts and so will not drain it as quickly as talking. The built in GPS would supply a lifeboat with coordinates to go to within around 10m so no need for VHF direction finding.
The PLB has a 121.5MHz transmitter for homing in on and so I won't need to hold buttons in. This battery lasts 5 years if unused and the device is tied to my LJ with dyneema cord.
A flare might give the helm a moment of knowing where you are, but it will also ruin his night vision and only last a second. The GMDSS mayday will show on his plotter as a waypoint, and can be polled again and again for up to the moment position information by both a rescue boat and the goastguard if in range for coordination activity. The Coastguard can also broadcast a position request and see if there are other vessels in the area who may be able to help. Those other vessels will certainly not be lighting up with flares offering their services.
121.5 is used extensively by SAR worldwide including by planes flying overhead.
EPIRBS do indeed need servicing, but at least they don't require careful disposal which seems beyond many yachtsmen, and I've never seen anyone suggesting they bury an EPIRB in their garden because they can't work out how to contact the authorities for disposal.

I don't have as many misunderstandings as you seem to think. Perhaps though you yourself have a few misunderstandings about electronics?

 

[lustyd]

I have. On more than one occasion, the most recent in the middle of the English Channel TSS about 2 years ago, they had managed to get a mobile phone call to the coast guard via a passing cruise ship's onboard mobile 'cell' before that went flat. We found them as a small commercial vessel about an hour before sunset.

PW

Really, their EPIRB, PLB, handheld VHF all had failed at the same time as their onboard ones? Or perhaps you're using an example of someone who didn't have these things, or hadn't looked after them to justify your argument?

 

[duncan99210]

As confirmation of that . I was asked by the lifeboat to do so when they were looking for me in a similar situation.
Trouble being that i was so ill i could not get to them
I now carry a small box of 10 mini flares in my jacket pocket which are in a plastic case

We were asked to fire a flare so the RNLI could find us, despite their original intention to home in on our VHF signal. I would never sail without a flare pack although I also have an EPIRB, PLB and DSC VHF.

Edit: thought it worth adding that the incident requiring us to be rescued was a knockdown. We got the VHF working and summoned assistance and the RNLI responded by launch the Alderney AWB. Their radar was unable to pick us out from the surface clutter, the VHF DF could not get a fix on us so they asked for the simple solution of a red flare. They were alongside ten minutes after it had been fired. All the electronic whizz bangery is great but the last little bit often needs a simple solution, which is provided by pyrotechnics.

I don't think that a laser marker would have done the job either, as it is too much of a point source. The coxswain told us that they spotted the loom of the flare before seein the flare emerge from the trough of the wave. You'd have to have been looking at just the right place to see the point of light generated by a laser marker.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The misunderstandings of the technological options people are trying to justify not carrying flares is worrying.

There does seem to a touching belief that all you need to do is press a button or two and help will appear, deus ex machina, in a matter of minutes. Perhaps it's a Solent (or other crowded waters) thing.

 

[nigelmercier]

I bought two red hand-held reds, and disposed of all my old flares with the vendor. He didn't have any facility to dispose of them, but now it's SEP.

I kept the two orange cans, as I assumed these are not pyrotechnic.