boat features that give good pointing

[Twister_Ken]

Long keelers do generally go beautifully to windward

Rob.

Define beautifully. My Twister sailed very nicely and very easily upwind, but she didn't point high. Working hard, I could get her going well at about 40º to true. The new boat will do 30º to true without breaking sweat (as well as being a couple of knots faster). Makes a heck of difference to passage times on an uphill course.

 

[flaming]

The new boat will do 30º to true without breaking sweat

You must win a lot of trophys....

That's a tacking angle of 60º. Which is better than the TPs do....

 

[Avocet]

Our long keeler doesn't point especially high, but, (like many long keelers, I expect) does go very well to windward and although the pointing angle isn't anything fantastic, she doesn't make much leeway because of the huge area of keel preventing lateral movement, so the "course made good" is actually quite respectable. In fact, if you can "lee bow" the tide, you can do very well against boats that ought to be quicker. Also, it's true that there's a lot of drag on the large underwater surface, but (again like most lf her type), she's much narrower in the beam than modern equivalents, so if you can live with the lack of accommodation below, the lack of beam goes some way to offsetting the large immersed area of keel.

 

[rob2]

Hmm - I normally try not to get in a huff - but have you actually read what I put in my posts? To say that there isn't single correct answer and then paraphrase some of what I and others have written is a bit insulting.

The OP also didn't ask about how labour intensive boats were.

The replies are all fairly long and weren't posted when I started to type mine. The reference to labour intensive is just pointing out that a cruising crew would not be comfortable with constant trimming and would not have enough weight to sit on the rail to keep the flighty beast under control.

No, I don't own a CO32, just an example of the hull lines that make my ideal cruiser.

Please don't jump down people's throats when they're joining a discussion - that's just bloody minded.

Rob.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The replies are all fairly long and weren't posted when I started to type mine. The reference to labour intensive is just pointing out that a cruising crew would not be comfortable with constant trimming and would not have enough weight to sit on the rail to keep the flighty beast under control.

No, I don't own a CO32, just an example of the hull lines that make my ideal cruiser.

Please don't jump down people's throats when they're joining a discussion - that's just bloody minded.

Rob.

I don't mean to jump down your throat - so apologies if I was a bit prickly. It was the sweeping statement that no-one had given the correct answer when there was broad agreement in the several replies as to what actually answered the OP's question.

I don't know what it is about people's extremely strong allegiances to CO32's and any boat with a long keel. I've sailed lots of boats - some long keeled and some fin keeled. I've sailed some dogs from both camps, but the hydrodynamics can't be argued with and the OP wanted to know what to look for in a boat that points well and sails fast.

I have already acknowledged that the CO32 is a nice boat, but they are very pokey down below by modern standards, and you can do better for you money IMHO. I will freely admit that I used to hanker after one until I tried sailing and living on one for a while.

You can sail several of the modern cruiser racers 'in cruising mode' by which I mean reef earlier and don't rely on crew on the rail to keep the thing upright. Its obviously a bit slower, but the thing will still sail high and fast. Not all cruiser racers are flighty.

 

[TQA]

Hi I am looking for a boat that is good for cruising and is relatively fast and is good at pointing in the 30 -34 foot range. What are the features and specdifications of a boat that you can look at and judge that it SHOULD be good at pointing.

Regards Richard

What about a Beneteau First 34.7 OK maybe biased toward the racing sailor but it is a cruiser as well. Get the deep keel version with the carbon mast and some crisp paper sails and that little sucker will outpoint most things. OH yeah the helm will matter on one. Sensitive little so and so's.

 

[Twister_Ken]

You must win a lot of trophys....

That's a tacking angle of 60º. Which is better than the TPs do....

Haven't been pot-hunting, but in my defence I refer you to the polar diagram:

http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/340/340_VPP_090413.pdf

 

[Yacht Yogi]

Beneteau First series

I would agree with the recommendation of Beneteau First yachts of the Finot-Conq design, which is based on the Figaro 1 offshore racer shape. Photo shows a 27.7 upwind in 30knots sheeted-in and well reefed. The important bits are a 2.1m bulbed fin keel, good sail shape (look at the telltales all flying) and the boom on the centreline and some weight up on the rail. The size you are looking would be the 34.7 which is essentially the same thing but longer.

 

[Twister_Ken]

But the boats behind seem to be pointing higher, especially the tubby one far right of the pic!

 

[lw395]

Haven't been pot-hunting, but in my defence I refer you to the polar diagram:

http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/340/340_VPP_090413.pdf

Is that a measured polar?
With full correction for heel on the wind angle sensor?
No, it's 'preliminary'.
Modern yachts will point very high in flat water, given enough breeze that the apparent does not go too far forward.
However in the real world of cruising, that amount of breeze usually un-flattens the water, and you move towards 45deg true to drive through the waves.

 

[lw395]

....

I don't know what it is about people's extremely strong allegiances to CO32's and any boat with a long keel. I've sailed lots of boats - some long keeled and some fin keeled. I've sailed some dogs from both camps, but the hydrodynamics can't be argued with and the OP wanted to know what to look for in a boat that points well and sails fast.

I have already acknowledged that the CO32 is a nice boat, but they are very pokey down below by modern standards, and you can do better for you money IMHO. I will freely admit that I used to hanker after one until I tried sailing and living on one for a while.

.....

Contessa 32's are quite slow.
On IRC they are given time by most 27ft boats, and this is generally seen to be fair in the race results.
They sail well, and a good one can handle more weather than I'd go looking for.
(although many of them are old, with poor unreliable gear now).
However, that genoa is a big brute, which makes crewing hard work at times.
OTOH they still have some class racing.

You either like them or not.
Personally, I prefer the X332 on looks, performance, utility, practicality....

 

[flaming]

Haven't been pot-hunting, but in my defence I refer you to the polar diagram:

http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/340/340_VPP_090413.pdf

Seems to give a best of circa 35 in flat water. Which seems about right, and probably equates to circa 40 - 45 with some waves.

Certainly our upwind targets are 37 in that sort of breeze, and I've not noticed any 340s climbing out from under us!

 

[flaming]

What about a Beneteau First 34.7 OK maybe biased toward the racing sailor but it is a cruiser as well. Get the deep keel version with the carbon mast and some crisp paper sails and that little sucker will outpoint most things. OH yeah the helm will matter on one. Sensitive little so and so's.

Race against them a lot. They're ok in this respect - no higher, or lower, than the other cruiser racer designs they regularly race against.

 

[john_morris_uk]

But the boats behind seem to be pointing higher, especially the tubby one far right of the pic!

When I started sailing and racing (although I don't do a lot of racing nowadays) I was told, "The boats around you ALWAYS look as though they are pointing higher. Don't worry about it - sail your boat to the best of your ability. Lots of the time its an optical illusion anyway!.

Even if they are pointing higher, there are lots of reasons. They might have just luffed up in a gust as the photo was taken, or they might be in a different wind to the boat in the picture. Wind direction is not always identical on different parts of the course. etc etc

 

[wotayottie]

Hi I am looking for a boat that is good for cruising and is relatively fast and is good at pointing in the 30 -34 foot range. What are the features and specdifications of a boat that you can look at and judge that it SHOULD be good at pointing.

Regards Richard

Rather than describe specific features, just look at some cruiser racer boats like new Firsts or X yachts or Arcona and you will see what the designers are doing to maximise speed and pointing. The key areas are obviously keel design, deck layout / sheeting angles, and hull design.

Ignore comments about long keels - thats just silly nonsense. When did you last see a modern race boat with a long keel? You never have done? I wonder why not?

 

[johnalison]

Although it's probably not scientific, I have the impression that larger boats point better than smaller ones of the same general type. At any rate, with anything other than a flat sea they make better headway to windward. Although my 34 footer is actually pretty good to windward I am never ashamed to be out-pointed by a larger vessel.

 

[doug748]

Rather than describe specific features, just look at some cruiser racer boats like new Firsts or X yachts or Arcona and you will see what the designers are doing to maximise speed and pointing. The key areas are obviously keel design, deck layout / sheeting angles, and hull design.

Ignore comments about long keels - thats just silly nonsense. When did you last see a modern race boat with a long keel? You never have done? I wonder why not?

I think the OP might be a little bemused comparing the features of his prospective 32 ft, 9 ton displacement, steel, Van De Stadt with an Ancona:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286343

Even if his exotic tastes extended as far as considering an X Yacht I doubt if his budget would.

 

[westernman]

Haven't been pot-hunting, but in my defence I refer you to the polar diagram:

http://www.arconayachts.se/_cur/340/340_VPP_090413.pdf

Angles are probably heading rather than course made good.
When you take into account leeway, then it will look very different.

And then of course if you take into account that you have a surface current of 2 knots since the wind has been blowing hard in the same direction for the last two days, your effective course over ground and effective tacking angle won't look nearly as good.

 

[Keen_Ed]

Sheeting angles of the headsail is one factor that is obvious and easy to see.

Other way round. The sheeting angle reflects the pointing ability of the boat, it doesn't define it. Sheet too close on a boat that can't point, and you're just stalling out the jib. Sheet to wide and you're just giving away height.

Windward ability is determined by the aero/hydrodynamic efficiencies of the hull & foils, and the rig. They have to work together, and for absolute best performance you need the best efficiency of both sails and hull & foils.

In all monohull restricted racing classes which limit sail area, but give you freedom on how to arrange it (Thames A raters, Bembridge Redwings, International 14s, 18' skiffs, NS14s, Nat 12s, Merlin Rockets etc), the answer for rig efficiency is a high aspect ratio rig, without overlapping sails.

In probably the best pointing boats around - ACCs (which, AUIU, could squeeze down to tacking angles under 60), the final hullform shows the answer for the most efficient hull - narrow, with a deep keel with lots of lead at the end of a high aspect, short chord foil (with a trim tab). Of course, having world class sailors to drive these foils does help, as average Joes like me would be stalling them out all the time, and spending a lot of time going sideways.

Light rigs (carbon where allowed) and heavy keels give you more power, which means you go faster, (& can reef later).

Of course, while ACCs point like a badger, in terms of absolute VMG, they would be left for dust by the current AC45 cats. The cats might be tacking through bigger angles, but they're going a lot faster....

 

[Avocet]

Rather than describe specific features, just look at some cruiser racer boats like new Firsts or X yachts or Arcona and you will see what the designers are doing to maximise speed and pointing. The key areas are obviously keel design, deck layout / sheeting angles, and hull design.

Ignore comments about long keels - thats just silly nonsense. When did you last see a modern race boat with a long keel? You never have done? I wonder why not?

Not necessarily "silly nonsense"! Just because modern racing yachts don't have long keels doesn't mean long keelers can't point well - it just means that when considering overall performance on all points of sailing, long keelers are not competitive any more. It's a bit like saying that streamlined racing cars that minimise wind resistance are bad because you never see a current F1 car that's particularly streamlined. They have big wings and lousy drag figures because the downforce the wings generate provides a greater overall benefit.