BMC 1.5 starting issues - urgent!

[PaulRainbow]

Key question, how much WD40 is he spraying in ? Is it enough ?

 

[mjf107]

As suggested by others

Check the compression of by barring the engine over, you should feel the compression stroke on each cylinder and considerable force should be required as TDC is approached then eases off as it goes overTDC. If this does not happen remove injectors and squirt a little engine oil into each cylinder, crank the engine over briefly to coat rings and bores with the oil, replace injectors, bar engine over again if the compression goes up all is well. If it makes little or no difference you have other problems, such as cylinder head gasket leaking, valves leaking or valve gear problems.

Edit
This is ment as general advice to determine where the loss of compression is occurring. Thinking about it it might be better to remove the glow plugs to introduce the oil, the key point is to get it into the Cylinders. By removing the glow plugs you can test and clean them individualy.

Then use the hair dryer WD40 or easy start trick along with the glow plugs as others have said to start it. I agree it should fire up briefly even if you still have fuel problems providing its drawing in air of cause and exhaust is clear, diesels such well when running! The oil will be burnt off acting as fuel along with the WD40....... Good luck with it.... all the best Michael

 

[maxi77]

Whilst I agree that the key problem is fuel and getting it out of the fuel pump and through the injectors from the experience of owning a BMC 1.5 for several years one key point in starting is the speed of cranking and that is down to the battery type. Changing the battery used for starting to a heavy duty car started battery changed the engines starting characteristics dramatically. Once the fuel problem is solved fit a proper starter battery fully charged and she ought to run with much more ease

 

[mjf107]

Whilst I agree that the key problem is fuel and getting it out of the fuel pump and through the injectors from the experience of owning a BMC 1.5 for several years one key point in starting is the speed of cranking and that is down to the battery type. Changing the battery used for starting to a heavy duty car started battery changed the engines starting characteristics dramatically. Once the fuel problem is solved fit a proper starter battery fully charged and she ought to run with much more ease

Yes I can testify to batteries used with these engines I had an Escort diesel van that needed a jump start hooked it up to land-rover the Escort burst into life.... best it ever started always a reluctant starter in cold weather

 

[ghostlymoron]

If as you say, the fuel supply is down to a few drops per minute, the engine is never going to run! You need to rig up a temporary feed from a small portable tank to get you going temporarily. Then clean the fuel system at your leisure.
BMC engines need a lot of heat and to be spun fast to get them going also throwing an egg cup full of fuel in the air intake sometimes helps.
I think you've identified the problem - dirty fuel.

 

[Captn Black]

Update - At the end of yesterday the fuel flow was good, 12-15 drops after 10 seconds cranking, but today I'm back down to 2 or 3 drops from the same, at injector end of hp lines.
In middle of going over lift pump again now while I have daylight, but shall go over and reply to comments that don't ignore the information I provided later.

 

[Heckler]

Update - At the end of yesterday the fuel flow was good, 12-15 drops after 10 seconds cranking, but today I'm back down to 2 or 3 drops from the same, at injector end of hp lines.
In middle of going over lift pump again now while I have daylight, but shall go over and reply to comments that don't ignore the information I provided later.

Stop right now chasing fuel problems!!
If there is no diesel at all in the system and you spray WD40 in to the intake and the compression is good it will fire !!!!!! It burns the propellant very easily which is why it is good to start a reluctant engine and it also burns the atomised liquid which is WD40, (we think it is white spirit) Believe it or not, If you spray it in to the intake, you could run the engine without fuel as long as you kept spraying! So if it wont even fire on WD40 then you have mechanical issues, ie low compression, that need sorting before you address the issue of low main diesel flow.
Stu

 

[Pasarell]

Whilst I agree that the key problem is fuel and getting it out of the fuel pump and through the injectors from the experience of owning a BMC 1.5 for several years one key point in starting is the speed of cranking and that is down to the battery type. Changing the battery used for starting to a heavy duty car started battery changed the engines starting characteristics dramatically. Once the fuel problem is solved fit a proper starter battery fully charged and she ought to run with much more ease

I agree completely with this comment and the one below about heating. Obviously you need to get the fuel through but with my old T90 it started so much better with a good battery even though it didn't seem to be cranking much faster. Even in the summer I had to give it 30 secounds of heat for first start of the day and that takes a lot from the battery before you start cranking

 

[Captn Black]

Thanks for replies guys. The cranking speed is good while I have good charge, especially when hooked up to solar panel and full battery. My battery is 75ah marine starter battery.

I will close the seacock now, but maybe we need to assume some water got in to the system?

I have been reluctant to mess with the injectors themselves as I don't have a torque wrench to put them back correctly, should I do so anyway?

Wd40 can now finished, I can afford more tomorrow.

I can also afford more diesel tomorrow and try hooking it up directly to injector pump intake as suggested.

Compression test will have to wait till end of the month, but hopefully I can sort things without that.

I also worry about opening anything that will require new gaskets to putbe back, as postage here is unreliable.

 

[Captn Black]

Also, not possible to hold wd40 can correct way up and fire engine at same time, as key broke in ignition and am having to hotwire it.
Glow plugs were drawing charge when I was able to check it via ignition panel, before key broke. Very reluctant to remove them as I hear they break easily.
I do not have a hairdryer, and am moored with only a 100w solar panel and 300w inverter, so not an option.

 

[Captn Black]

However, I read that a blowtorch can do the same job as a hairdryer, which I have. The temperature here is 20-24c everyday, so not exactly cold.

 

[NormanB]

I think we've narrowed down the problem to the injector pump (lift pump was a black tarry mess, but clean now, everything else also cleaned, and yes, cut out is in run position). The workshop service manual does cover the injector pump, but I don't think I have the specialist tools for full service, but the thread I shared suggests that cleaning the gause is possible without full service. Besides, as you're all no doubt aware, there's a big difference between servicing an engine in a workshop compared to doing it aboard a vessel at anchor/mooring. So any advice regarding this would be welcome, thanks.

Is this at all helpful?

I take it your injection pump looks like this?


I am not suggesting the below describes your specific problem but I think the implication is that the fuel galleries are full of shite.


Injector Pump - Important
In recent years, petroleum manufacturers have modified the ingredients of red diesel and it’s additives now have an adverse effect on the seals within a BMC’s injection pump. Leaks are growing in number and you need to keep an eye on this as a leaky pump may not be obvious.

Keep a regular check on your engine oil.
Does the level appear to be rising?
Is there more of a Diesel smell to it?
Often the first seals that begin to leak are those on the injection pump drive shaft as this is under constant pressure. The problem is that the leak is straight into the oil sump and can go unnoticed for some time. Too much diesel in the oil could cause the engine to “hydraulic”. This means that the engine will begin to run on the oil in the sump rather than the fuel. The result is that the engine increases speed, often very quickly, and it can easily spin out of control. Once the lubrication in the sump has been burned as fuel, the engine will seize and in some cases may destroy itself by throwing a connecting rod out of the side. None of these scenarios are pleasant and can be very dangerous. The only way to stop it, if you dare, is to starve it of combustion air.

BMC diesel engine fuel pumps are prone to this failure with modern fuel. If you have not had your injection pump serviced in recent years, you should seriously consider this.
Having the injection pump serviced is not cheap, but the replacement seals will not be attacked by the modern fuel and, at the end of the day, if your pump is original, it’s already well overdue an overhaul.

Kingfisher Boat Services offers a pump reconditioned BMC 1.5 Fuel Injection pumps on a service on a service exchange basis at a very competitive price. However, there are many variants of pumps in use and only the most common will be offered on an exchange basis; older type units can be reconditioned but with a delay for the work.

We'd be happy to carry out the removal and fitting work for you if you would prefer not to do this yourself.

http://www.kingfisherboatservices.co.uk/blog-BMC-Marine-Engines.php

Contacts
Kingfisher Boatyard,
Bungalow Lane,
Thorpe St Andrew,
Norwich,
NR7 0SH
enquiries@kingfisherboatservices.co.uk
01603 858453
www.KingfisherBoatServices.co.uk

No connection just researching as you report findings.

 

[Captn Black]

Thanks, I read that post too, but thankfully the previous owners attended to those problems, by replacing with newer versions of same parts.
The oil does not smell like diesel, and the level now is down to 75%, I topped it up 2 weeks ago. There seems to be small oil leak in area of flywheel, perhaps 20-40ml in last 2 weeks, but I read that is fairly normal. There is a drip tray beneath engine, so I would be aware of any significant leaks.

 

[NormanB]

Are you absolutely 100% sure you have purged all air at the injection pump?

If so then - I wonder if you could attempt an in situ flush of the injection pump to try and expel the crap.

http://www.fujiyachts.net/manuals/CAV Fuel Injection Equipment.pdf

Scroll to page 7 and look at illustrations opposite. I think by removing item 2 and pressurising through 4 ( with a clean fuel supply) you might get some shite out. Or you may consider removing the delivery valve holder, spring and delivery valve itself - that may enable further flushing too.

At the very least taking off 19 and diverting any flow into a bucket will enable you to assess closely the volume of pumped fuel on cranking.

Just trying to be helpful........

 

[Captn Black]

Hey Norman, I had been sure, but then I discovered an archived thread here with different bleeding instructions, suggested bleeding the high pressure nut via starter with throttle open. It produced good results, there was a lot of air. I'll need another day of sunshine to charge the battery for another attempt at starting though.

 

[Captn Black]

Addtionally, I did try your final suggestion yesterday, and it was not long after that that I had a good flow of fuel. The flow worstened when I tried again this morning, but I'll have to wait for more charge to see if getting rid of that extra air helped.

 

[Captn Black]

And thanks kingfisher, that is the injector I have. The previous owners used your service, but my hope is that I wont need to. I have looked at your website before, it will take 2 months of eating nothing but porridge until I can consider that expense.

 

[K-ron]

I'm sure somebody will come along and do the maths but getting a good charge in the battery with a 100w panel in one day at this time of year even in the canaries may prove a little tricky, especially if it's pretty flat from constant cranking. Just a thought after you sort the fuel problem.

Good luck

 

[Captn Black]

That pdf does give me some ideas though, thanks Norman. Though I can't rule out small leaks elsewhere, the fuel flow is good all the way to the injector, so I need to focus on that. Unless I'm told otherwise, I'm fairly sure I need a torque wrench before I can start looking at the injectors themselves and glow plugs, and more than likely that job will require new gaskets too, so I'm trying what I can for now.

 

[Captn Black]

Hey K-ron, yea, I know this from experience. I've done the maths, a full day of sun, (with my homemade tilting system) is enough. Though of course I don't let it get below 60% in the first place. Unfortunately I think we're due clouds tomorrow.