Bluewater boat for under £40k: Moody or Jeanneau?

[Kelpie]

Moitessier summed it up in one of his books - something like "A cruising boat is never finished, when the time is right and the winds are fair - raise the anchor and leave"

Ebay and amazon are handy in the UK but after that you'll be fixing your boat on and off always, that's just how it is bluewater, might as well get some practice in

I'm certainly no stranger to fixing stuff on the go- our last cruise was only six nights away from home, and by the time we got back the boat had a heater, fridge, pushpit, and self steering fitted! I believe in keeping myself busy, although it does drive SWMBO slightly crazy having the boat resemble a building site.

I doubt I will fall into the 'perfectionist' camp, and anyway I think that once we head south I will have a much wider range of options available for boatbuilders and yards.

 

[KellysEye]

I'd go with a Moody they are better built.

 

[capnsensible]

I'd go with a Moody they are better built.

Heresay.

 

[robertj]

I'd go with a Moody they are better built.

Yes I agree

 

[capnsensible]

Yes I agree

OK then. Ive had my Moody for nearly 20 years and lived aboard for most of that. I recently sold my Jenneau Sun Odyssey that was my school and charter boat. Had that for about ten years.

Have been over every inch of both boats many times over those years. Fitting, fixing, sailing. Based on that experience, my opinion is that there is no difference in the build quality.

Have sailed much newer versions from both manufacturers too. My opinion is unchanged.

Ive also got a thread running about how good Bavarias are!!

 

[Bajansailor]

Kelpie, a bit left field perhaps, but have you considered looking for boats on the other side of the pond as well?
BVI Yacht Sales occasionally have interesting cruising yachts for sale -
https://www.yachtworld.com/bviyachtsales/
This Passport 40 has been sold, but it sounds like a boat like this might be suitable for you?
https://www.yachtworld.com/core/lis...er&&hosturl=bviyachtsales&&ywo=bviyachtsales&

Vic mentioned his Moody 42 earlier - here is one for sale in Martinique
http://www.caribbean-yachts.com/

You could try looking on the Eastern Seaboard of the USA as well - do an 'advanced' search on Yachtworld, and type in as many constraints (re size, type, age, price etc) as you like, and see what comes up.
I did a search like this based on your requirements outlined so far, and I was amazed by the number of what appear to be very nice yachts for sale, at prices much less than what similar yachts might be selling for in Europe (even when allowing for the poor exchange rate of the GBP vs US$).
This was one of the many that 'came up' -
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/Tartan-37-3052326/Fort-Pierce/FL/United-States

Tranona has mentioned in various other threads in the past that you lose your VAT status if you are out of the country for more than three years (which seems to me to be very unfair) - hence if you are planning on going cruising for more than a few years, then it makes sense to consider buying a vessel abroad, rather than one at home which is VAT paid, especially if there is a chance that you might lose that VAT status (?)

 

[Graham376]

Tranona has mentioned in various other threads in the past that you lose your VAT status if you are out of the country for more than three years (which seems to me to be very unfair) - hence if you are planning on going cruising for more than a few years, then it makes sense to consider buying a vessel abroad, rather than one at home which is VAT paid, especially if there is a chance that you might lose that VAT status (?)

AFAIK VAT status can be lost if they know you've been outside the EU for extended periods but there are exceptions.
Although there are some bargains the other side of the pond, taxes will have to be paid if brought into the EU (no 18 month VAT grace for EU residents) and RCD compliance can cost a fair amount. With Brexit on the horizon, my inclination would be to buy a boat which is EU VAT paid unless no intention of returning.

 

[Kelpie]

I admit I'm a bit ignorant about the whole vat and importing side of things- seems like a can of worms! I don't think I was aware of losing VAT status after three years- can you reset the clock by visiting an overseas territory of an EU country, e.g. Falklands, Reunion etc?

As to buying outside of the UK, yes I've had a bit of a browse and the prices are appealing, but then reality sinks in... the difficulty, risk, time, and effort involved in finding the boat abroad... do we decamp to whatever country we find the boat, and then spend six months living aboard whilst refitting it... or do we try and bring it home for the refit... Having said that, we have started casting an eye on the boats for sail in Europe, which is a much less daunting prospect than going to the USA etc.

I wouldn't be completely against the idea of setting off in our current boat and just keeping a keen eye open for boats for sale along the way- this would likely mean having to sell the current boat at a big knock down though, as we'd be paying for berthing and would be in a hurry to sell. Probably the exact same reasons why the boat we were buying would be a bargain. I don't think I can get this plan past SWMBO though, as I think she suspects me already of wanting to just use our current boat...

 

[RivalRedwing]

AFAIK VAT status can be lost if they know you've been outside the EU for extended periods but there are exceptions.
Although there are some bargains the other side of the pond, taxes will have to be paid if brought into the EU (no 18 month VAT grace for EU residents) and RCD compliance can cost a fair amount. With Brexit on the horizon, my inclination would be to buy a boat which is EU VAT paid unless no intention of returning.

Would Martinique count as EU ?

 

[Bajansailor]

RR, I don't think that Martinique, Guadeloupe et al count as EU for VAT purposes, but maybe Tranona or Macd can confirm or deny this.

Kelpie, your Deb 33 should be perfectly capable of a transatlantic circuit in reasonable comfort - I remember seeing one here some years ago after she had arrived from the Canaries.
Debs appear to be very seaworthy designs.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4651
Better the 'devil you know, rather than the one that you don't?'

Re buying a boat on this side of the Atlantic, I looked at a few on Yachtworld that appeared to be in pretty reasonable condition, with engines and rigging that were not original (usually replaced within the last 10 years), hence you might not have to do much of a re-fit really.

 

[Kelpie]

Kelpie, your Deb 33 should be perfectly capable of a transatlantic circuit in reasonable comfort - I remember seeing one here some years ago after she had arrived from the Canaries.
Debs appear to be very seaworthy designs.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4651
Better the 'devil you know, rather than the one that you don't?'

She was bought with that in mind- back when there were only two of us! She has a lot going for her, but alas I made the mistake of showing SWMBO some cheap AWBs on the internet and that has set the ball rolling. One thing we do agree on, though, is that if we are going to go through the hassle of changing boats it has to be for the 'forever' boat, with as few compromises as possible.
So far we have viewed, and even put in an offer on, a Moody 37, but tbh I thought that whilst the accommodation was nice, the stowage was a bit limited- very little space under the aft berth, and only one cockpit locker. I'm quite intrigued by the idea of a AWB with three double cabins, and using one of them for storage- I imagine you could pack away a lot of big stuff like spare sails, folding bikes, inflatable kayak for the kid, in a space like that. I'm also rather fond of my guitar and was looking around the Moody scratching my head about where that could be safely stored- on the Deb it just goes on the pilot berth.

 

[Tranona]

RR, I don't think that Martinique, Guadeloupe et al count as EU for VAT purposes, but maybe Tranona or Macd can confirm or deny this.

Kelpie, your Deb 33 should be perfectly capable of a transatlantic circuit in reasonable comfort - I remember seeing one here some years ago after she had arrived from the Canaries.
Debs appear to be very seaworthy designs.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4651
Better the 'devil you know, rather than the one that you don't?'

Re buying a boat on this side of the Atlantic, I looked at a few on Yachtworld that appeared to be in pretty reasonable condition, with engines and rigging that were not original (usually replaced within the last 10 years), hence you might not have to do much of a re-fit really.

None of the Caribbean Islands are in the EU VAT area. They are in the EU/EEA for RCD purposes - but this is only relevant for pre 1998 boats if they were actually in the territory on the qualifying date in 1998.

While boats seem cheap in the US this is usually because demand for them is low. This is often for 2 basic reasons. The first is they are in poor conditions and second US buyers do not value old boats. The two are of course linked. If they are low resale value nobody spends serious money keeping them up to scratch,

However this does not mean they represent good value for a UK/European buyer. First if they were not built in the EEA/EU they will not be RCD compliant so cannot be imported into the EU. Second VAT has to be paid at 20%+. Third it costs £8-10k to transport to Europe. you may be able to sail it over, but the cost of preparing and undertaking the passage, given that the boats are mostly as described in the first paragraph is likely to cost at least as much. Add to that the cost of visiting the US and finding and buying a viable boat and you see why virtually nobody does it.

There are situations where it can be viable. For example if you don't want to bring the boat back to Europe, but say do a circumnavigation from the US. This of course means buying and preparing the boat there and eventually selling it there. If you live in the US and are returning to live in Europe it can also be viable to bring your boat back with you.

For somebody in the OPs position it is just not viable.

 

[Strolls]

OK then. Ive had my Moody for nearly 20 years and lived aboard for most of that. I recently sold my Jenneau Sun Odyssey that was my school and charter boat. Had that for about ten years.

Have been over every inch of both boats many times over those years. Fitting, fixing, sailing. Based on that experience, my opinion is that there is no difference in the build quality.

Have sailed much newer versions from both manufacturers too. My opinion is unchanged.

Ive also got a thread running about how good Bavarias are!!

So you'd be quite happy to buy an AWB for a circumnavigation?

 

[capnsensible]

So you'd be quite happy to buy an AWB for a circumnavigation?

Yup. Have sailed my Moody across the Atlantic and back twice. Have made a few ocean crossings on other yachts. Seen lots of boats travelling around, no problems. :encouragement:

 

[GHA]

So you'd be quite happy to buy an AWB for a circumnavigation?

Lots do and have done.

 

[Tranona]

Lots do and have done.

Report recently on the Bavaria forum of two rounding Cape Horn on their way to Australia. Fairly common for intrepid Aussies to buy new boats in the Med, cruise around for a couple of years and sail home.

 

[dom]

Report recently on the Bavaria forum of two rounding Cape Horn on their way to Australia. Fairly common for intrepid Aussies to buy new boats in the Med, cruise around for a couple of years and sail home.

Bad form if I might say so, to be introducing hard data like this into a debate which is by convention limited to untainted prejudice

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Report recently on the Bavaria forum of two rounding Cape Horn on their way to Australia. Fairly common for intrepid Aussies to buy new boats in the Med, cruise around for a couple of years and sail home.

Were they on a freighter.

 

[Tranona]

Bad form if I might say so, to be introducing hard data like this into a debate which is by convention limited to untainted prejudice

I know. Even though I retired over 10 years ago still difficult to forget the value of hard evidence.

Of course does not tell us whether they were scared out of their wits, brains scrambled due to the slamming or enjoying the ride!

 

[Tranona]

Were they on a freighter.

If they were on a freighter it would have been through the Panama Canal which is what others sailing their boats back would do so they could enjoy the Pacific islands on the way.