Stemar
Well-Known Member
Lidl's malt is drinkable, but I wouldn't call it fine
Bioethanol fireplaces / stoves
- Thread starter dustysheehan
- Start date
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Well, that's one use for bioethanol! Seriously, why do people advertise things for use with bioethanol? Ethanol is ethanol; the heater doesn't know whether it originated from fermentation or from a chemical plant at an oil refinery. The stuff that comes out the end is all the same - good old C2H5OH, the same as in beer, wine, spirits etc. It's an ETHANOL heater; the "BIO" bit is marketing! I don't have any problems with bioethanol, but it's the fuel that should be marketed as such; devices that use ethanol are agnostic about its source!
Alfie168
Well-Known Member
Few if any cookers have flues.....so indeed all these devices without flues that combust carry a CO risk. Provided there is a source of ventilation the risk is low, but that negates the heating effect.
Flued devices also require air 1) for combustion 2) to enable flow of fumes through and out of the device, so free air ventilation is also required for them.
Manufacturers instructions should tell you how much ventilation is required.
ParkyForU
New Member
I use a bioethanol fireplace whenever it's cold, not as a sole heat source obviously, but mainly for the looks. I've used it for about two years and I haven't had a problem with water vapour, but then again, I have no idea what the difference would be in a boat versus a roomy living room.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why anyone would want the CO2, water, and some small amount of CO going into the cabin. That's just primitive and not good for you, either comfort (humidity) or air quality. If you crack a window, now you need to burn that much more.
The OBVIOUS difference between a boat and house is the difference in volume, perhaps 20,000 ft^3 for a moderate house vs. 1500 ft^3 for a moderate sized boat. 17x smaller. Not even similar.
I simple answer, to me, is to put a smoke stack on the stove, alcohol or other. This is the system I use on my F-24 (the PDQ in my avitar has a properly vented propane heating system with dedicated air intake).
stove heater
The OBVIOUS difference between a boat and house is the difference in volume, perhaps 20,000 ft^3 for a moderate house vs. 1500 ft^3 for a moderate sized boat. 17x smaller. Not even similar.
I simple answer, to me, is to put a smoke stack on the stove, alcohol or other. This is the system I use on my F-24 (the PDQ in my avitar has a properly vented propane heating system with dedicated air intake).
stove heater
Gsailor
...
I loved my Taylor’s diesel heater.
That is the limit of me experience.
That is the limit of me experience.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
As Vyv and Alfie point out some yachts, many (?) have a gas fired hob, toaster and oven without any demand for ventilation (deaths have been low, or unreported). I suspect when its cold people will drop in the washboards. I confess one cold night we made up a casserole - enjoyed with red wine, hot shower (gas flued boiler) 8 hours sleep - to awake to a toasty interior - we forgot to turn the oven off.
I recall an old idea was to light up one of the hobs, place an inverted terra cotta flower pot on top and convert the hob into a radiant heater.
Better: decades ago there were storage heaters full of olivine (shipped in bulk 3,000t at a time) based bricks (some made in Scotland it was big business) with coils of wire wound through the bricks. Whatever happened to them? At the back of my mind is the idea there was a special, low, overnight electricity rate??. Olivine, or magnesium silicates have a high thermal capacity - but in the absence of an olivine brick - any old, or new, brick would provide thermal mass on a stove top (or even in the oven). The basic heat source need not be electricity and instead of olivine or a house brick a magnesia of MagChrome brick would do.
I do admit a brick (or 2), olivine or not, is not very attractive - or not as attractive as a blazing log fire
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
'Storage radiators'. In theory, heat using slightly lower cost electricity overnight, then blow out the 'stored' heat during the day. Our first house had them. Cost a fortune to run and the house was cold after about 1100.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Our first home had no gas supply, and we had storage heaters. They a) were inefficient and b) expensive. The contrast in cost and efficiency with gas heating was so great that when we applied to the bank for a loan to install them, the bank rang me to ask if we'd be better off with gas! Sadly, the village I lived in didn't have a gas supply at that distant time.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
There was obviously a very convincing argument in favour of storage heaters, 10s of thousands were sold
But, it seems, like too many things - good marketing with little substance
Our first house had coal fires, one of which heated the water, and the second gas central heating - both around the peak of usage of storage heaters (which we never had).
Jonathan
But, it seems, like too many things - good marketing with little substance
Our first house had coal fires, one of which heated the water, and the second gas central heating - both around the peak of usage of storage heaters (which we never had).
Jonathan
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
In rural areas without a gas supply, the choices were oil, LPG and storage heaters. The capital cost of the former two was much higher than that of storage heaters, so many opted for them, as we did. I lived in a large village on a main trunk road not far from Cambridge (I cycled to work in Cambridge) and that had no gas supply until about 1985, so it wasn't an uncommon choice for a lot of "dormitory" villages.
There's also the point that when they were first introduced (1960s?) they were thoroughly over-sold on the expectation that "electricity would be too cheap to meter"!
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Much to my surprise - if you use google and search 'storage heaters' you will find they are, just?, alive and kicking.
I knew of them from the early 70s when they were big business. Oddly I lived in central Scotland and every reasonable town had a (coal) gas tank or even a gas works, surrounding villages had piped gas and coal was in constant supply -totally different to your background.
Jonathan
I knew of them from the early 70s when they were big business. Oddly I lived in central Scotland and every reasonable town had a (coal) gas tank or even a gas works, surrounding villages had piped gas and coal was in constant supply -totally different to your background.
Jonathan
thinwater
Well-Known Member
In fact, it is an example of people believing marketing instead of doing simple energy calculations they learned in school, but intentionally forgot as soon as the class ended, because "I will never use that in real life." In fact, life is always about science. That is life, if you want to understand it.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Our rural house in North Wales although on an A road trunk route still has no piped gas supply. We were on oil for 50 years, still the cheapest and best. Now on oil in France. No new constructions can have oil fired boilers but the fuel will available for decades
thinwater
Well-Known Member
As an interest point, some states in the US are moving to ban gas stoves because of indoor health concerns. I'm not feelin' it, but it has gained some traction. Given that a boat as 20x less volume, though you may not accept the house argument, cooking on a boat requires venitilation, and that is a problem if you are trying to heat the interior. There are only weak arguments for unvented heaters in the confines of a boat cabin. Add a flue.
Ban gas stoves in homes?
Ban gas stoves in homes?
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Notice on a coded boat, 41', above the galley gas cooker states "hatch must be open when using gas appliance". I guess it is there for the risks associated with noxious combustion products, liability risk reduction and regulation requirements.
This is good thread, because beyond the usual NOX threats I was unaware of the shit that burning gases can release in domestic appliances.
Worth a read from January 2023 Are gas stoves really dangerous? What we know about the science
Read the article in the link for context.
This is good thread, because beyond the usual NOX threats I was unaware of the shit that burning gases can release in domestic appliances.
Worth a read from January 2023 Are gas stoves really dangerous? What we know about the science
Read the article in the link for context.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Note also that ABYC requires not only flues for heaters and fired calorifiers, but also that the entire combustion air flow be sealed from the cabin, including air intake. My heater has a dedicated air intake that is sealed to the heater.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Despite all the negativity, the warnings and the science I don't recall ever reading of anyone dying in a yacht, caravan or motorhome (or even a domestic house) as a result of using an oven. Do people who sail in winter, or in places with a cold climate, keep the yacht open and aired - or do they enjoy the heat. Much is mentioned over the use of a diesel heater for ... heat. So you have the heater blazing away - do you open the hatch when you start the oven....?
I too have read of the noxious and unwelcome emissions from gas stoves - but again - I have not read of cooks in restaurant - think of the cook in a typical Chinese restaurant head over the stove making stir fries all night - having health problems. There is talk of banning here the use of gas stoves in both houses and restaurants. I vaguely recall use of roving gas heaters in houses in the UK. There were gas outlets in the house and you simply moved the heater not the nearest appropriate outlet - lit up the heater, open flame, and made your toast.
.
Bit of drift.... suddenly here in Oz people are anxious over the health problems with stone bench tops - as if it is all something new. Silicosis has been known for decades - common coal miners disease - now they want stone bench tops banned. What have they been thinking of over the past decades - or in this case - not thinking of.
Health risks from cooking in a yacht - it has always been a non event - and dangers have been documented -but as I said - I've seen no reports of deaths.
Our certificated gas hot water heater in our cat only had a flue vented outside, the combustion air came from inside.
Jonathan
I too have read of the noxious and unwelcome emissions from gas stoves - but again - I have not read of cooks in restaurant - think of the cook in a typical Chinese restaurant head over the stove making stir fries all night - having health problems. There is talk of banning here the use of gas stoves in both houses and restaurants. I vaguely recall use of roving gas heaters in houses in the UK. There were gas outlets in the house and you simply moved the heater not the nearest appropriate outlet - lit up the heater, open flame, and made your toast.
. Bit of drift.... suddenly here in Oz people are anxious over the health problems with stone bench tops - as if it is all something new. Silicosis has been known for decades - common coal miners disease - now they want stone bench tops banned. What have they been thinking of over the past decades - or in this case - not thinking of.
Health risks from cooking in a yacht - it has always been a non event - and dangers have been documented -but as I said - I've seen no reports of deaths.
Our certificated gas hot water heater in our cat only had a flue vented outside, the combustion air came from inside.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
It did make me think - if you are using the oven then put a storage heater brick or 3 in the oven, along with the casserole. Better heat a brick than air that will be lost as soon as you open the oven door. You can follow best practice - open the hatch when cooking but close when the casserole is ready and bask in the heat from the bricks as you quaff the red wine, before bed (when, as planned, your partner can provide the heat)
Jonathan
Jonathan
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