Best Solent anchorage for a first overnight on the hook?

[l'escargot]

Some harbours are very zealous in collecting harbour dues, such as Hamble and Chichester - when they are on the ball they will find out if you intend mooring and if not they will collect the dues for just entering the harbour.

 

[BelleSerene]

OK; what they choose to spend 'harbour dues' on isn't where I was heading.

By what authority is a harbour authority legally able to charge for entering/ using the water in a harbour? Is there a statute? A bylaw of the local council? An ancient custom pre-dating written law (I doubt it)?

Or is it just a case of asking for money in a uniform and no-one realising that there's no obligation to pay?

Anyone know?

 

[Seajet]

I'm pretty sure Chichester Harbour will cover harbour dues in a byelaw, as will other harbours.

Chichester has plenty of byelaws, including 'thou shalt not leave thy boat unattended and bugger off to the pub if thou has picked up a spare mooring'.

 

[l'escargot]

...By what authority is a harbour authority legally able to charge for entering/ using the water in a harbour? Is there a statute? A bylaw of the local council? An ancient custom pre-dating written law (I doubt it)?

Or is it just a case of asking for money in a uniform and no-one realising that there's no obligation to pay?

Anyone know?

Usually an act of parliament - a "Statutory Instrument".

Cowes for instance was granted theirs originally in 1897 and there are regular revisions, the most recent being this year. The act gives them various authorities including the authority to levy charges (and impose fines) and to set byelaws as well. So I am afraid there is no doubt and there is an obligation to pay.

You will find similar acts in existence for other harbours granting their authority as well.

 

[Tranona]

OK; what they choose to spend 'harbour dues' on isn't where I was heading.

By what authority is a harbour authority legally able to charge for entering/ using the water in a harbour? Is there a statute? A bylaw of the local council? An ancient custom pre-dating written law (I doubt it)?

Or is it just a case of asking for money in a uniform and no-one realising that there's no obligation to pay?

Anyone know?

There is a good summary of the situation in respect of who has the right to charge or not on the RYA site. As already suggested most harbour authorities have the right either to charge whatever and however they want to control the use of the harbour and maintain the facilities. Many do not in fact make any charges for anchoring as the cost of collection exceeds the revenue. However, most do through a levy on berths and buoys. You find the highest charges in the popular places where the demand for facilities outstrips the supply and often they are harbours that have high maintenance costs as well. On the other hand there are many places where there are no charges, either as a deliberate policy to encourage use of the harbour (Scotland is the best example). In these cases the costs of running the harbour fall on general taxation rather than the specific harbour users.

You also find in some cases the rights to charge are with commercial providers under licence from the Crown or from a harbour authority. A few are genuinely "private" such as Beaulieu and others are National Trust, although the latter does not normally have the right to charge for anchoring, only for use of facilities.

 

[BelleSerene]

Usually an act of parliament - a "Statutory Instrument".

Cowes for instance was granted theirs originally in 1897 and there are regular revisions, the most recent being this year. The act gives them various authorities including the authority to levy charges (and impose fines) and to set byelaws as well. So I am afraid there is no doubt and there is an obligation to pay.

Thanks. This (draft) Cowes Harbour Revision Order states as below. I note (my bold type) that this entitles the Cowes Harbour Commissioners to charge only for services and facilities. I don't believe that any service or facility is provided to me if I anchor in the designated zone within the harbour?

Charges for services or facilities
5.  In addition to their power to demand ship, passenger and goods dues under section 26 of the Harbours Act 1964, the Commissioners may demand, take and recover such reasonable charges for services and facilities requested by any party and provided by or on behalf of the Commissioners at the harbour and the harbour premises as they may from time to time determine.

 

[l'escargot]

Thanks. This (draft) Cowes Harbour Revision Order states as below. I note (my bold type) that this entitles the Cowes Harbour Commissioners to charge only for services and facilities. I don't believe that any service or facility is provided to me if I anchor in the designated zone within the harbour?

Charges for services or facilities
5.  In addition to their power to demand ship, passenger and goods dues under section 26 of the Harbours Act 1964, the Commissioners may demand, take and recover such reasonable charges for services and facilities requested by any party and provided by or on behalf of the Commissioners at the harbour and the harbour premises as they may from time to time determine.

It is a revision order so only contains the sections being revised, you would need to read the original order and all the subsequent revisions to get everything that they are entitled to do. Just being in the harbour could probably be construed as using a facility though - the harbour is a facility whether you believe it or not. I think you are looking at fighting a losing battle... harbour statutory instruments are well established. You probably have as much chance of getting councils to drop car parking charges.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks. This (draft) Cowes Harbour Revision Order states as below. I note (my bold type) that this entitles the Cowes Harbour Commissioners to charge only for services and facilities. I don't believe that any service or facility is provided to me if I anchor in the designated zone within the harbour?

Charges for services or facilities
5.  In addition to their power to demand ship, passenger and goods dues under section 26 of the Harbours Act 1964, the Commissioners may demand, take and recover such reasonable charges for services and facilities requested by any party and provided by or on behalf of the Commissioners at the harbour and the harbour premises as they may from time to time determine.

This is well explored territory. You will find that harbour authorities do not act in general outside the law, so if they are charging for anchoring you will find they have the legal right to do so. The area that is covered by harbour authorities is defined in the instrument that establishes them, but not all anchorages are covered by an authority, nor, as I suggested above do all authorities charge for anchoring.

You can be pretty sure that if there is any doubt in a specific case, it will have been challenged by now, as was the case with Newtown River, where the NT took it over, but not the right to charge for anchoring only for using the buoys for which they have a licence.

If you believe you have found a harbour authority that is acting "ultra vires" - that is beyond what it is legally entitled to do, then suggest you contact the RYA Legal department for advice.

 

[BelleSerene]

I am sure l'escargot is right that this would be fighting a losing battle. However...

I find it tempting NOT to believe the logic:

You will find that harbour authorities do not act in general outside the law, so if they are charging for anchoring you will find they have the legal right to do so...

You can be pretty sure that if there is any doubt in a specific case, it will have been challenged by now...

simply because l'escargot is right! It's precisely because it's such a small charge for anchoring, set against such opaque rights of the authority to charge for it (let's face it, no-one here has yet been able to point to them, only to 'they will be embedded somewhere in the original or variant harbour statutes') and against the time-consuming and expensive battle to challenge such alleged rights, that we all prefer to assume the right to charge exists, and pay up. Which affirms the harbour's confidence in charging and embeds in our own awareness the expectation that it must be legitimate.

I do like the earlier advice to ask for an itemised bill in order to pay, and then wait for nothing to happen. But it would be great to get to the bottom of it.

 

[DOK]

BelleSerene,

Have you considered the wording at the start of para 5 in your quote:

5. In addition to their power to demand ship, passenger and goods dues under section 26

Without looking, I suspect it is that provision that gives them the right to levy Harbour Dues. The bit you have highlighted is (as I read it) for additional services.

 

[Tranona]

I am sure l'escargot is right that this would be fighting a losing battle. However...

I find it tempting NOT to believe the logic:



simply because l'escargot is right! It's precisely because it's such a small charge for anchoring, set against such opaque rights of the authority to charge for it (let's face it, no-one here has yet been able to point to them, only to 'they will be embedded somewhere in the original or variant harbour statutes') and against the time-consuming and expensive battle to challenge such alleged rights, that we all prefer to assume the right to charge exists, and pay up. Which affirms the harbour's confidence in charging and embeds in our own awareness the expectation that it must be legitimate.

I do like the earlier advice to ask for an itemised bill in order to pay, and then wait for nothing to happen. But it would be great to get to the bottom of it.

Nothjing to "get to the bottom of". You are tilting at windmills! Please talk to Gus lewis at the RYA, or at least read the published materials on the subject. Harbour authorities have the legal right to make levy charges within the designated area of the harbour. So, if the area you are talking about is within the harbour authority's control they can levy charges. End of story. They are not "alleged" rights, but well established by the legal framework that governs harbour authorities.

Not saying this just because l'escargot says its right, but he is correct in saying it is right!

 

[Wansworth]

On our way to the river Itchen we thought it was getting a bit late so anchoured to the south of the HAMBLE RIVER ENTRANCE out of the fairway and big shipping.Good holding.As a firts time anchourage you have lots of room to practice and lots of room to drag and the Hamble nearby if it all goes pear shaped...

 

[BelleSerene]

Without looking, I suspect it is that provision that gives them the right to levy Harbour Dues. The bit you have highlighted is (as I read it) for additional services.

Interestinger and interestinger (to paraphrase Alice in Wonderland):

This S26 of the Harbours Act, inter alia, enables harbour authorities to charge 'ship, passenger and goods dues' as they think fit, and defines 'ship, passenger and goods dues' as 'in relation to a harbour, charges... of any of the following kinds, namely... charges in respect of any ship for entering, using or leaving the harbour...'

which leaves them to charge whatever they like for merely entering the harbour - as another forumite observed, using a right to charge for entering the harbour, as there's (presumably) no right to charge for anchoring in it. So any opposition to this would presumably have to be on grounds that as they don't charge it on boats that merely enter without using a mooring (if you go in and come out because say the moorings are all taken, they won't charge you), they don't actually have a charge for entering the harbour and so their claim that this 'anchoring charge' is actually for entering the harbour is false.

Which might stand up. Any lawyers around here?

 

[Seajet]

Some people here seem desperate to start a legal fight and have no idea what boat ownership is all about...

Watching the sun rise after a cold lonely night watch, strolling around a proper chandlery with all the right smells...

Getting ripped off as one's a captive market, going back to the boat and setting up the boom tent as it's started to rain...

These are the real sailing experience, not yelling into a computer on a direct line to 'ambulance chasers R Us'.

 

[BelleSerene]

Which part of objecting to

Getting ripped off as one's a captive market

shows

no idea what boat ownership is all about...

Confused?!

 

[l'escargot]

Interestinger and interestinger (to paraphrase Alice in Wonderland):

This S26 of the Harbours Act, inter alia, enables harbour authorities to charge 'ship, passenger and goods dues' as they think fit, and defines 'ship, passenger and goods dues' as 'in relation to a harbour, charges... of any of the following kinds, namely... charges in respect of any ship for entering, using or leaving the harbour...'

which leaves them to charge whatever they like for merely entering the harbour - as another forumite observed, using a right to charge for entering the harbour, as there's (presumably) no right to charge for anchoring in it. So any opposition to this would presumably have to be on grounds that as they don't charge it on boats that merely enter without using a mooring (if you go in and come out because say the moorings are all taken, they won't charge you), they don't actually have a charge for entering the harbour and so their claim that this 'anchoring charge' is actually for entering the harbour is false.

Which might stand up. Any lawyers around here?

I doubt if you will find a lawyer wiling to challenge a statutory instrument.

Your argument will probably fall over in as much as they do have a charge for entering the harbour, it is just that they don't exercise their right to collect in all cases, waiting for vessels to moor or anchor before they do and not collecting it whilst they are on passage.

And even if you like the idea, there is nothing to say they need to give you an itemised bill either - you don't in the council car park, you pay up or get a fine.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Mutters....
poor bloke only wanted to know where to anchor, now look whats happened.

 

[onesea]

Mutters....
poor bloke only wanted to know where to anchor, now look whats happened.

There I was waiting for the CQR V Bruce argument amazing the way some treads turn...

It will give the OP plenty to read during his first night at anchor

 

[Joker]

There's a good anchorage behind the spit at Hurst, near the lighthouse. Well sheltered from anywhere apart from easterlies.

And I've given up on the CQR. Where I anchor, it gets completely clogged with weed, and if it drags, it doesn't reset.

But I'm sure it's fine in mud or sand.

 

[PhillM]

OK so we are going to give it a go tonight. Thanks to everyone for help, support and encouragment. It does make a difference.

Also, thanks for not making this into an anchor thread For the record, I have decided to go CQR and all chain. If that fails I will give the bruce a go, again with all chain. I am thinking one advantage of all chain is that its harder to wrap it round the prop - so that seems a good way to go.

If you see us draging in Beaulieu river give us a wave, have paitence while we have another go but please NO photos.