Bavaria 41 Holiday, 1998 build?

[Sharky34]

A mate is considering buying into one of these & wonders about build quality, etc.
Any information gratefully passed on.

 

[Sharky34]

PS, have their keels stopped falling off?

 

[wully1]

Random thoughts..

Probably ‘better’ built than newer ones
Probably ‘nicer’ especially if you don’t like the Ikea look
Probably a bit tired unless it’s been loved and not used much
Probably needs, or will soon need, lots of (expensive)bits replaced.
Possibly got teak decks - run a mile.

 

[dom]

PS, have their keels stopped falling off?

No, they all come with spares now - little skinny space-saver ones just like your car's spare tyre.

You can buy them in Halfords

 

[Mark-1]

Probably ‘better’ built than newer ones

Love it. In 1998 people were saying they fall apart in months. 22 years later they're still going strong and considered the better ones. Same trajectory as Westerleys.

People were predicting exactly this at the time.

 

[johnalison]

'90s Bavarias were worthy but a bit dull, and the interiors a bit dark, but they were decent boats and I remember looking at them at boat shows at the time. The Holiday has less freeboard than later types which were influenced by EC rules, and for me this might be an advantage. I believe that Bavaria keels were attached with a step to take grounding loads, but I think later ones must have had a sloped attachment which is more usual, so the keel should be sound.

 

[capnsensible]

Lots of boats are tougher than the people who sail them.....?

I did a lot of part time sailing work for a Solent sailing school and charter company as these were being introduced. Even did some corporate 'racing' with them. The Holiday version did indeed seem flimsier than their predicessors. I don't know how long the production run was, but without describing in technical terms, there was something that didn't quite feel right about them. A common discussion point amongst my peer group of skippers. Didn't ever nail it, just a general kinda thought. So I can't be vaguer than that!

 

[jwilson]

AFAIK the 'Holiday' branded series were built for the (mostly Med) charter market, and there was a slightly higher specced version also available called if I remember correctly Exclusive. Nothing wrong with them, but they are J&J designs from the earlier years of Bavarias mass-production phase, not the even earlier Axel Moenhaupt designs which were really quite high quality boats.

All depends on condition, especially if it has had many years of charter. A good one is a lot of boat for the money. The fact that charter companies and sailing schools love Bavarias is an indication that they don't fall apart quickly despite heavy usage. Keels falling off on cruising Bavarias is a myth, that only happened on one specific race-oriented model the 'Match 38'.

 

[Sharky34]

Lots of boats are tougher than the people who sail them.....?

I did a lot of part time sailing work for a Solent sailing school and charter company as these were being introduced. Even did some corporate 'racing' with them. The Holiday version did indeed seem flimsier than their predicessors. I don't know how long the production run was, but without describing in technical terms, there was something that didn't quite feel right about them. A common discussion point amongst my peer group of skippers. Didn't ever nail it, just a general kinda thought. So I can't be vaguer than that!

I seem to remember a habit they had, of riding up into wind, no control on rudder & dumping the main the only way of stopping it.

 

[Sharky34]

AFAIK the 'Holiday' branded series were built for the (mostly Med) charter market, and there was a slightly higher specced version also available called if I remember correctly Exclusive. Nothing wrong with them, but they are J&J designs from the earlier years of Bavarias mass-production phase, not the even earlier Axel Moenhaupt designs which were really quite high quality boats.

All depends on condition, especially if it has had many years of charter. A good one is a lot of boat for the money. The fact that charter companies and sailing schools love Bavarias is an indication that they don't fall apart quickly despite heavy usage. Keels falling off on cruising Bavarias is a myth, that only happened on one specific race-oriented model the 'Match 38'.

"Charter companies & sailing schools love them" perhaps because they didn't own them, most being on charter from owners who thought they were a 'cheap' boat to buy.

 

[markspark7]

Is it the four cabin version or three? The four cabin version makes the fore cabin pretty small, SWMBO wanted to make the small twin into her walk in wardrobe.
Does look dark with the mahogany wood but if you get a good un abused one should be good value for money.
Just out of interest is it in the Med or UK and what's the price if you dont mind me asking?

 

[Sailfree]

"Charter companies & sailing schools love them" perhaps because they didn't own them, most being on charter from owners who thought they were a 'cheap' boat to buy.

They still have to repair them. I spoke at length to the Charter company staff that I had 2 of my boats with before buying my last 2 boats regarding quality.

Bavarias came out OK. Only boat they put me off buying was an Elan. Majority of charter boats are Bavarias Jeanneau Dufour and Beneteau. All the equivalent of a Ford quality/reliability and good value for money.

I still have the Jeanneau 43DS after 15yrs with 10yrs on charter. Needed some tlc but that's all.

Only problems I had on 3 new charter boats were Volvo bits going wrong.

 

[jwilson]

I seem to remember a habit they had, of riding up into wind, no control on rudder & dumping the main the only way of stopping it.

That's almost universal on modern production boats, if you let them heel too much. I went from a leadmine long-keeler to a modern Jeanneau. The old boat would heel 45 degrees plus and still steer and track. And you did not need to reef till about 25 knots wind. The Jeanneau fights the helm above maybe 12-14 degrees heel and sails best to windward if you put the first reef in at about 12 knots wind. Different technique needed - sail them flat and reef early and they are fine.

 

[ashtead]

On Bavs you should also use the mainsail slider track to depower and ideally have a recut headsail of smaller area and better sailcloth. As standard most were fitted with rubbish Elvström sails but hopefully these will be long gone on any old Holiday. Clearly avoid the in mast furling mains favoured by pensioners if you can at this size of Bav. Other issues to check are the shore power charging arrangements as easy to toast the batteries on a Bavaria due to overcharging batteries. Lastly check the rudders for osmosis . Other info on the owners website. If looking at older Bavs I would look for an exclusive or be tempted by the Ocean version with stern cabin if you don’t have a large number of crew.

 

[Sailfree]

On Bavs you should also use the mainsail slider track to depower and ideally have a recut headsail of smaller area and better sailcloth. As standard most were fitted with rubbish Elvström sails but hopefully these will be long gone on any old Holiday. Clearly avoid the in mast furling mains favoured by pensioners if you can at this size of Bav. Other issues to check are the shore power charging arrangements as easy to toast the batteries on a Bavaria due to overcharging batteries. Lastly check the rudders for osmosis . Other info on the owners website. If looking at older Bavs I would look for an exclusive or be tempted by the Ocean version with stern cabin if you don’t have a large number of crew.

Presumably it the charger unit Bavaria fitted that was at fault?

That's the thing with people criticising various makes of boats they all consist of a set of components that are common names across a whole range of boats including expensive boats - this covers Engines, Winches, Masts and Spars etc. It's mostly the hull, rudder etc thats down to the manufacturers and then their choice of the components and their size (eg winches).

One advantage of buying a major production manufacturer is that their QA/QC is usually good (I visited the Jeanneau yard to see my boat during construction and was impressed with their QA/QC) and there are lots of Buyers with experience that can advise on any minor known problems or tweaks to improve the boat.

 

[Sharky34]

On Bavs you should also use the mainsail slider track to depower and ideally have a recut headsail of smaller area and better sailcloth. As standard most were fitted with rubbish Elvström sails but hopefully these will be long gone on any old Holiday. Clearly avoid the in mast furling mains favoured by pensioners if you can at this size of Bav. Other issues to check are the shore power charging arrangements as easy to toast the batteries on a Bavaria due to overcharging batteries. Lastly check the rudders for osmosis . Other info on the owners website. If looking at older Bavs I would look for an exclusive or be tempted by the Ocean version with stern cabin if you don’t have a large number of crew.

On any I've sailed, that track is only about one metre & hardly able to depower when rounding up, dumping the mainsheet was the only thing that worked.

 

[Sharky34]

That's almost universal on modern production boats, if you let them heel too much. I went from a leadmine long-keeler to a modern Jeanneau. The old boat would heel 45 degrees plus and still steer and track. And you did not need to reef till about 25 knots wind. The Jeanneau fights the helm above maybe 12-14 degrees heel and sails best to windward if you put the first reef in at about 12 knots wind. Different technique needed - sail them flat and reef early and they are fine.

Never had sudden uncontrolable roundup on Jenneau or Benneteau, only Bavs.

 

[ashtead]

If you are in a Bav and letting the traveller down doesn’t stop the heading up you need to have put a reef in - initially furl in the headsail slightly though if you don’t like pulling in reefing lines. Clearly if you have an in mast version that might jam though if you have been foolish enough not to have serviced . It just a mindset of when you reef but it does mean you can sail past Hallberg and such like in light winds but it just takes more skill to sail a Bav in a breeze. That said even a westerly will head up in the right breeze if you keep your hanked on headsail up for too long as you cannot free the brass pistons .

 

[Bobc]

Bavarias like to have the main reefed early. The genoa does about 80% of the work anyway. On ours, sailing upwind, we reef the main and leave the genoa all out, until when over 20kts, we just have the whole genoa out and no main up at all. The boats points just as high, goes just as fast, and tacks just as well, but with a better balanced boat.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I've got a '99 Bav 36 which spent a decade as a charter boat before I got her .... still going strong. Avoid teak decks otherwise great value for money.