Autopilot back up

[Gryphon2]

We have a Moody 38 with an excellent Robertson autpilot ....but which I believe maybe is as old as the boat at 25 years plus. I am looking for a cheap backup should it fail on an ocean passage.

On my last boat we had a Raymarine set up that took us most of the way round the world but we did have a Hydrovane which we used less and less as it never followed as good a course, especially downwind. I am toying with the idea of buying a cheap tiller pilot and using it either attached somehow to the wheel or maybe better still the emergeency tiller.

Does anyone have experience on doing this as an emergency back up. . We have met a number of people who had autopilot failures on long passages and know how tiring they found having to hand steer for days on end.

 

[TQA]

Have a look at the CPT http://cptautopilot.com/

Fitting is an easy DIY job,

I know a delivery captain who used to carry on in his lduffle on deliveries.

 

[[70521]]

Have you ever played with sheet to tiller self steering? YouTube has a few clips about it.

I wonder why your Hydrovane did not work downwind. If you are looking to chuck it out I'll happily take off your hands.

 

[cmedsailor]

I am looking for a cheap backup should it fail on an ocean passage.
On my last boat we had a Raymarine set up that took us most of the way round the world .

I believe this is the answer. Since you are planing ocean passages and have first hand experience with a Raymarine, then worth investing into it.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have an Aeries & on my boat ( which is extremely directionally unstable) it will not steer a good down wind course. However, one can remove the vane & fit an electric autopilot such as theST 2000.
if you have a Hydrovane why not beg steal or borrow a cheap autopilot & hook it to your Hydrovane instead of the actual vane & see if that works.
Bearing in mind that this is a backup I would suggest that a bit of a wobbly course might be acceptable in the circumstances.
My Raymarime AV100 was playing up for sometime until it was found to be a software issue & i often had to resort to the Aeries ( still do to conserve power) & to be honest the bit of course veer does not matter much as it is not much worse than the AV100. The Aeries also performs better in higher winds & i suspect that your Hydrovane might as well.
So keeping it & spending £ 300 ( or whatever) on an ST 2000 or Simrad TP 30 ( I have had both & preferred the Simrad) with just a 12V hook up rather than a full steer to wind function etc might be the cheapest option

 

[Graham376]

I am toying with the idea of buying a cheap tiller pilot and using it either attached somehow to the wheel or maybe better still the emergeency tiller.

A friend tried tiller pilot on his emergency tiller on an Atlantic crossing when his inboard pilot failed on 38ft steel boat, it didn't last long before failing. The loads needed on an emergency tiller on a wheel steered boat can be far higher than a tiller steered one due to the extra friction in the steering system.

There's no reason why a tiller pilot won't work but more likely to be expensive heavier duty one rather than "cheap" and mounted further out along the tiller arm. Friend's IIRC was an old Autohelm 1000 or 2000.

 

[Gryphon2]

Thank you for the suggestions. Unfortunately the Hydrovane went with the Beneteau 423 I used to have. The hydrovane is undoubtedly a good bit of kit but did not like going downwind in light winds especially, even if the boat was well balanced. On the wind I did not need any additional steering as even on the Beneteau it was easy to get the boat balanced after a few tries. I think I on;ly have one more long ocean passage left to make so want a cheap option back up, not a complete new set up as there appears nothing wrong with what I have already. I think I will experiment with a tiller pilot ....possibly direct to the wheel if it proves too much of a strain when attached to the emergency tiller. On the ben I became very successful at putting as little strain on the pilot as possible ....mostly by reducing sail early and using twin foresails downwind and dumping the main I would rather do this anyway as using the emergency tiller leaves a rather large hole directly over the bed!

Anybody got a cheap tiller pilot I can play with?

 

[prv]

I have an ST2000 tillerpilot in the shed from our previous tiller-steered boat, and have seriously contemplated putting it in a locker on the new boat and adding mounting points for it to the aft cabin bunk frame and the main autopilot's stub tiller.

Ours is a fairly lightweight 34 footer, though, and I'd only be using the tillerpilot on that as an emergency measure. I'm not convinced it would be up to the job of steering a 38' Moody loaded for cruising, especially in ocean swell.

Pete

 

[TQA]

Before settling on a tillerpilot as a back up you might want to read the log of Webb Chiles who is currently circumnavigating in a light weight 24 ft boat with a tillerpilot. I think he got through 6 crossing the Pacific.

 

[Gryphon2]

I don't think this is a good comparison for what I need. We crossed the Pacific in 2010 so I know what to expect and a 38 ft boat behaves very differenttot a 24 ft one....for one thing it is not going to get regularly soaked and if the boat is well balanced willl actually be doing less work than on a smaller boat.

I emphasise again that what I need is a temporary back up should the worst happen and the main autopilot gives up.

 

[Tranona]

The only tiller pilot that might stand a chance is the 4000. The smaller ones struggle with anything weighing half of the weight of your Moody, even with the correct leverage on the tiller. Why do you think it will work when logic tells you it won't - that is they are not powerful enough?

The only thing that will work is the basic wheel pilot such as the CPT suggested by TQA or the Raymarine EV-100 which is relatively cheap and may cope with light weather or when motoring.

 

[Foolish Muse]

As mentioned elsewhere, you should take a serious look at a simple sheet to tiller system using only a $2 piece of surgical tubing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY1qx3PfUS0&t=95s
The beauty of this is that when your electrical system completely fails, this will still work perfectly.
I know of at least one guy who crossed the entire Pacific Ocean using this method. See the photo below. You can find a complete description in my free book here: http://sfbaysss.org/main/resources/

 

[Tranona]

As mentioned elsewhere, you should take a serious look at a simple sheet to tiller system using only a $2 piece of surgical tubing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY1qx3PfUS0&t=95s
The beauty of this is that when your electrical system completely fails, this will still work perfectly.
I know of at least one guy who crossed the entire Pacific Ocean using this method. See the photo below. You can find a complete description in my free book here: http://sfbaysss.org/main/resources/
View attachment 72335

The OP has a Moody 38 with wheel steering.

While tiller to sheet steering works if your boat has a tiller, it is very limiting for ocean sailing where the majority of the time is spent off the wind. It was the limitations of simple balance based systems that prompted the development of wind vane steering and subsequently electric based systems that also work when motoring.

 

[capnsensible]

For those readers that do have a hydrovane, when motoring you can rig up a (relatively) cheap Simrad tiller pilot to drive the hydrovane rudder.

The weak spot is the two little red and green plastic covers over the port/stbd waste of time indicator lights. gaffer tape them up before you take a wave!

 

[Foolish Muse]

The OP has a Moody 38 with wheel steering

Yes, all he needs to do is connect the sheet and surgical tubing to a lower spoke on his wheel. Then somewhere, about half way down the spoke, he will find the point where movement of the wheel is a good approximation of a tiller. It is also very likely that the boat has an emergency tiller system that can be used.

it is very limiting for ocean sailing where the majority of the time is spent off the wind.

The photo above was off the wind. I've done it myself and had no problems in high or light winds.

It was the limitations of simple balance based systems that prompted the development of wind vane steering

The addition of the storm jib means that this is not the same as a simple balancing the jib and main steering system. The storm jib performs the same function as a separate wind vane steering.
It's not perfect, but given that a major cause of autopilot failure is complete electrical failure, then it is a good alternative to buying a second electrical autopilot. And it is a lot cheaper and easier to install than a complete wind vane system if it is only to be used as a backup. The OP should at least give it a try before buying a different method.

 

[Tranona]

The OP should at least give it a try before buying a different method.

Do you actually have any examples of it working on all points of sail on an 8 ton wheel steered boat? Your video illustrates its limitations, both in size of boat (although i expect larger well balanced tiller steered boats can be made to sail in this way with the wind forward of the beam).

Many Moodys have the emergency tiller actually in the aft cabin so rather difficult to use! Boats of this size need the power of a wheel to cope with the loads as anybody who has tried to steer with the emergency tiller will tell you. It is also impractical to attach anything to the lower spoke of a wheel on a centre cockpit boat.

So, maybe worth trying but suspect all he will discover is the same as his idea to use a tiller pilot (except on a Hydrovane) that an alternative is another one of what he has (or maybe the wheel pilot I suggested) or a Hydrovane.

 

[Graham376]

Many Moodys have the emergency tiller actually in the aft cabin so rather difficult to use! Boats of this size need the power of a wheel to cope with the loads as anybody who has tried to steer with the emergency tiller will tell you.

The loads are very high as I found out when trying ours for fun and steering blind in aft cabin isn't to be recommended in anything but smooth water. It wouldn't take long to disconnect the cables at the quadrant which would lighten it and I see no reason why a suitably powerful tiller pilot wouldn't work particularly if it was mounted much further along the tiller arm. It would of course shorten the effective stroke but on a well balanced boat, full travel is unlikely to be needed.

 

[Tranona]

The loads are very high as I found out when trying ours for fun and steering blind in aft cabin isn't to be recommended in anything but smooth water. It wouldn't take long to disconnect the cables at the quadrant which would lighten it and I see no reason why a suitably powerful tiller pilot wouldn't work particularly if it was mounted much further along the tiller arm. It would of course shorten the effective stroke but on a well balanced boat, full travel is unlikely to be needed.

Therein lies the rub. there is no "suitably powerful" tiller pilot. The most powerful is the tiller version of the 4000/EV-100 and if using that it would make sense to use the wheel pilot version. (I am assuming he wants to stay with UK sourced gear, otherwise it might be worth looking at the US made Pelagic tiller drives)

What is not been discussed is the nature of the failure that the OP is preparing for. If it is drive failure then just a wheel pilot (or a new ram) is sufficient, if electronic failure then a spare course computer and control head is needed. If electrical failure then a windvane is the only alternative.

Of those choices if you discount total electrics failure (ie no power from the batteries) then an EV-100 is the cheapest at around £1300 to give both a spare set of electronics and an alternative drive. Not a perfect substitute but better than nothing.