At risk of starting an anchor thread... a windlass and chain question...

[Neeves]

Why do I think I have been used as a laughing stock?

This is why:



Yeah, bloody funny, chaps. Like I said, Simple Sucker here walked right into it. Hilarious.

If there was a joke, a bit of hilarity, it was focussed at me, not you. But I'm thick skinned. If your christian name is also Jonathan, I can understand why you thought you had been maligned.

For the answer to use of kellets - please read the final sentence on Post 55.

I think if I interpret correctly you deploy a kellet weight, made up of smaller portions which you assemble prior to deployment, at over 30kg and presumably retrieve by hand. You sensibly keep the components of the kellet over the keel in the bilges and when required you carry them from the bilges to the bow (to assemble as one 'component') to lower down the already deployed rode.

Just clarifying.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Geem, if this is a competition - we had a 20m bridle deployed, 20m each side, only a couple of weeks ago. it was breezy. But we are using 6m chain, for a 7t cat. I'm now toying with the idea of an even longer bridle.

Jonathan

 

[Kukri]

If there was a joke, a bit of hilarity, it was focussed at me, not you. But I'm thick skinned. If your christian name is also Jonathan, I can understand why you thought you had been maligned.

For the answer to use of kellets - please read the final sentence on Post 55.

I think if I interpret correctly you deploy a kellet weight, made up of smaller portions which you assemble prior to deployment, at over 30kg and presumably retrieve by hand. You sensibly keep the components of the kellet over the keel in the bilges and when required you carry them from the bilges to the bow (to assemble as one 'component') to lower down the already deployed rode.

Just clarifying.

Jonathan

No my name isn't Johnathan.
http://splash247.com/unsafe-draft-part-two/

There's nothing to stop you using the rope drum on the windlass to get the angel to the stem head and after that you fish the bits up with a boat hook. As so often with things written by Worth, people have read second hand accounts of what he wrote, misunderstood them and found their attempts unsuccessful. He was very careful and precise.

 

[geem]

Geem, if this is a competition - we had a 20m bridle deployed, 20m each side, only a couple of weeks ago. it was breezy. But we are using 6m chain, for a 7t cat. I'm now toying with the idea of an even longer bridle.

Jonathan

Not a competition, just sharing my experience that like you, we find a longer snubber is better.

 

[Neeves]

Not a competition, just sharing my experience that like you, we find a longer snubber is better.

I mentioned earlier - we don't see people using long snubbers. Its good to find someone like minded

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

Why do I think I have been used as a laughing stock?

This is why:



Yeah, bloody funny, chaps. Like I said, Simple Sucker here walked right into it. Wasted an hour pulling the book with the original description of a kellet off the shelf and photographing pages. Hilarious.

Incidentally I too am a "marine journalist", dealing in rather larger vessels but I don't go in for that sort of trick.

I appreciated reading your post and found it interesting. Not sure where the 'trick' comes in: as an 'Expert' by your description I have never read any user experience of kellets despite absorbing almost everything anybody writes about anchors and anchoring and giving talks to many sailing clubs and associations on the subject.

A comparison I sometimes use is that the Austin 7 is just about contemporary with the CQR. Nobody ever suggested that the Austin 7 does not work, as with the CQR. It's just that technology has moved on and now there are far better things available.

 

[Neeves]

Then if your name is not Jonathan you can have a laugh at my expense as well and stop being so touchy!

Jonathan

 

[Kukri]

having cleared the air with Neeves on other threads I thought I'd just drag this one back up again..

So...

1. I certainly don't need 12mm chain.

2. i can either stick with 10mm G30 which is probably G40 anyway or go down a size to 8mm and use G70.

3. I have dropped re-positioning the windlass as an idea.

4. Still wondering about whether to try a modern anchor, given my particular ways and needs of anchoring - which will be the same for all East Coast boats that anchor a lot, I fancy - namely that I am typically anchoring in good holding ground and in good shelter but either surrounded by other boats or on the edge of a dredged channel, so I don't want a 5:1 scope. And my personal dislike of using the engine means that I want to be able to bring up under sail.

I know how to bury a CQR - drop the chain on top of it whilst still moving at two knots or so, and snatch it into the mud - but does that work with the new types?

 

[pmyatt]

"Have long snubbers Retired climbing rope (from climbing centres) is ideal as as snubber for your size of yacht - and is cheap or free."

Surely not; it's made to be as completely non-stretch as is possible.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

"Have long snubbers Retired climbing rope (from climbing centres) is ideal as as snubber for your size of yacht - and is cheap or free."

Surely not; it's made to be as completely non-stretch as is possible.

Climbing rope has definitely got a stretch factor, no climber would relish a drop without a little bit of elasticity to absorb the shock.

 

[Kukri]

A related snubber question - we can all see that a long thin snubber, eg climbing rope, is better than a short one, but nobody likes a long thin rope snaking around in the water as you shorten up the chain and its one more thing to deal with.

So does anyone routinely leave the long snubber secured to the chain at the "usual place" and held to it by loose lashings every couple of metres?

 

[RobbieW]

A related snubber question - we can all see that a long thin snubber, eg climbing rope, is better than a short one, but nobody likes a long thin rope snaking around in the water as you shorten up the chain and its one more thing to deal with.

So does anyone routinely leave the long snubber secured to the chain at the "usual place" and held to it by loose lashings every couple of metres?

The proposal on the other thread is that the bulk of the snubber goes back to a midships or aft cleat. Thats something I'd not thought of and will review the runs to see how feasible that is on my boat. The idea of having all 10m of snubber off the bow was my main objection to the idea, especially as I prefer to anchor in 4-5 metres where possible.

 

[Tranona]

I find a CQR sets well in mud in Poole harbour, but not good in anything else and particularly useless on hard bottoms and weed. I changed to a genuine Delta - sort of half way house both in claims of holding and price compared with a rocna Manson etc. Also self stows on bow roller. As good as the CQR in mud and better elsewhere. Had a 16kg with 8mm chain on a 37' displacement just over 6 tons and never worried. Pretty much a standard setup on Med charter boats which do far more anchoring in variable conditions than typical UK use.

 

[Neeves]

"Have long snubbers Retired climbing rope (from climbing centres) is ideal as as snubber for your size of yacht - and is cheap or free."

Surely not; it's made to be as completely non-stretch as is possible.

Dynamic climbing rope, lead rope, has high stretch max 40%. If it were low it would cause severe injury. Its like a bungy. If you were climbing an overhang and were high, you would actually want more elasticity, but if you were near the ground you want less - the 40% limit (as with everything) is a compromise. Static climbing ropes have less elasticity.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

The proposal on the other thread is that the bulk of the snubber goes back to a midships or aft cleat. Thats something I'd not thought of and will review the runs to see how feasible that is on my boat. The idea of having all 10m of snubber off the bow was my main objection to the idea, especially as I prefer to anchor in 4-5 metres where possible.

Its a very crude comparison but a 10m length of 10/12mm nylon has about the same elasticity as a 30m length of 10mm chain has useful catenary - but the nylon will have stretched about 10%, (Jimmy Green says you can stretch 20%) so using a 10m snubber forward of the bow means you deploy 10m or if chain 30m, using a snubber on deck means you do not deploy any snubber, its on the deck, but need 30m of chain. If you deploy, say a further 5m of snubber - now forward of the bow your stretch drops to 7.5% and you would need to deploy 15m of chain to get a similar effect.

The longer/shorter your usable deck - obviously impacts how much of the snubber you can 'hide'. But if you can run from an amidships cleat then doing so from an aft cleat does not seem too difficult. Route at the stanchion bases and it will not be an obstacle to going forward in the dark.

Keeping the stretch to 10% will extend the life of your nylon, whose life is part dictated by the number and % of stretch. Stretching to 20% is quite possible, but 10% is the WLL. Don't use too thick nylon, it will simply not stretch. If anything go slightly smaller, shorter life but much better effect.

If possible go for a bridle, it will reduce yawing, even in a monohull - and yawing contributes to anchors dragging. If you keep your yacht stable (riding sails, bridles, anchoring in a 'V') you load the anchor in a straight line and it will set more deeply with each tug, load at constantly changing angles and it might not set more deeply (its too busy chasing direction).

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

A related snubber question - we can all see that a long thin snubber, eg climbing rope, is better than a short one, but nobody likes a long thin rope snaking around in the water as you shorten up the chain and its one more thing to deal with.

So does anyone routinely leave the long snubber secured to the chain at the "usual place" and held to it by loose lashings every couple of metres?

If your snubber is secured at the aft cleats and routed at the stanchion bases then their is no snubber getting in anyone's way. We retrieve, detach the snubber hang the hook on a forestay and then retrieve the rest of the chain. The snubber is now ready for the next time we anchor we have no need to do anything with it. Its like a furling line and left in situ all the time.

Where you hang the snubber hook is a matter of whatever is convenient to you - we have a forestay which is handy - so we use it. Add a shackle, of the right size, under your fuller drum - that will work (I know because we tried it).

If its simple and easy - you will use it. Which is one reason we route our snubber through the stanchion bases, out of the way, not a tripping hazard - but importantly ready for use without any effort.

Jonathan

 

[MM5AHO]

I use a snubber most of the time when anchoring. I use nylon because of its elasticity. I try to get about 10m of the 12m length out, but do that with only a couple of metres over the bow, by securing the end back at the cockpit. The rope lies along the deck. It goe through a 1m length of hose at the bow stemhead.
I do stow it away, and the main reason for not leaving it on deck is that nylon is not very UV stable, and despite sailing in Scotland, we do see some sunshine. I attach the hook that's spliced on the end to the chain after considering how much chain to deploy for the depth and exposure to wind.
To see how much effect this has, I once marked the snubber with a bit of tape and lay down beside it watching that bit of tape move forward and back about 2-300mm each way. In considering anchoring without the snubber, that force extending the snubber rope would have been applied to the chain. Some of it to the catenerary, some of it as snatch load to the Knox anchor.
I only started using a snubber about 4 years ago, but then I only really paid a lot of attention to anchoring about 5 years ago after years of using a CQR.