Are snuffers the work of the devil?

[ProMariner]

Bad snuffers are the work of the devil, same as bad engines, bad toilets, etc.

Good snuffers are great, you just have to work the kinks out of the system.

Works better with slippery kites, so if it is a bit older, give it a fabseal treatment, or give it to a sailmaker to coat it. same with the inside of the snuffer sock.

Some snuffer socks don't have a separate sleave for the rope, if so, throw out, this is necessary to stop the snuffer twisting during deploy, which will cause a jam during snuffing.

Some snuffers are too tight, causing the sail to bunch during deploy, if so, replace with the right (loose fitting) one.

Some mcclube or silicone spray on the mouth helps too.

I run the endless line (extra long) through a couple of blocks tied off just in front of the forestay, (to save having to walk the snuff line round the forestay each gybe) and back to the cockpit along the deck, allows you to snuff/unsnuff from aft. also means during a broach, I can snuff (blow tack/guy first), get the boat back on its feet, and unsnuff again while the boat next to me is still repacking its kite to rehoist.

As an assymetric, the kite is most at risk of damage during a gybe, so I snuff to gybe in most conditions. Most kite damage comes from hoisting and dropping, getting snagged, so again, kite in snuffer means no risk to sail.

Not saying that snuffers are essential, there are safe practices to use downwind sails with or without them, I opt for with because aside from short course racing, once you are used to it, it's faster than repacking, faster to get going again after a mess up, makes hoists/gybes and drops easy, even in too much wind, and puts the expensive fragile sailcloth in a protective bag before you start dragging it all over the rig.

The only downsides I can see, is 15 extra seconds to hoist, more pain if you have bad kit or badly maintained kit, and they don't look good in photos, and they make the kite bag a bit less comfy to sleep on.

Top down furlers look interesting, but they only work on flatter, shorter luffed reaching a sails, and have more moving parts, so more expensive.

 

[yerffoeg]

This year I removed the snuffer, which was a hassle, and have been encouraged to use the cruising chute more often. We are usually short-handed, two of us in a 27 foot boat. I found the chute much simpler and easier to launch, trim and lower, without the snuffer.

I think that once you get beyond a certain size boat and sail plan, then a snuffer might be helpful. But mine is temporarily staying in the garage, en route for the boat jumble.

 

[geem]

Bad snuffers are the work of the devil, same as bad engines, bad toilets, etc.

Good snuffers are great, you just have to work the kinks out of the system.

Works better with slippery kites, so if it is a bit older, give it a fabseal treatment, or give it to a sailmaker to coat it. same with the inside of the snuffer sock.

Some snuffer socks don't have a separate sleave for the rope, if so, throw out, this is necessary to stop the snuffer twisting during deploy, which will cause a jam during snuffing.

Some snuffers are too tight, causing the sail to bunch during deploy, if so, replace with the right (loose fitting) one.

Some mcclube or silicone spray on the mouth helps too.

I run the endless line (extra long) through a couple of blocks tied off just in front of the forestay, (to save having to walk the snuff line round the forestay each gybe) and back to the cockpit along the deck, allows you to snuff/unsnuff from aft. also means during a broach, I can snuff (blow tack/guy first), get the boat back on its feet, and unsnuff again while the boat next to me is still repacking its kite to rehoist.

As an assymetric, the kite is most at risk of damage during a gybe, so I snuff to gybe in most conditions. Most kite damage comes from hoisting and dropping, getting snagged, so again, kite in snuffer means no risk to sail.

Not saying that snuffers are essential, there are safe practices to use downwind sails with or without them, I opt for with because aside from short course racing, once you are used to it, it's faster than repacking, faster to get going again after a mess up, makes hoists/gybes and drops easy, even in too much wind, and puts the expensive fragile sailcloth in a protective bag before you start dragging it all over the rig.

The only downsides I can see, is 15 extra seconds to hoist, more pain if you have bad kit or badly maintained kit, and they don't look good in photos, and they make the kite bag a bit less comfy to sleep on.

Top down furlers look interesting, but they only work on flatter, shorter luffed reaching a sails, and have more moving parts, so more expensive.

I couldn't agree more. I would only add that taping anything on the foredeck that might possible foul the spinnaker is sensible. splits pins, etc

 

[dom]

I don't disagree with most of what Flaming, or Daydream Believer say, apart from their conclusion! Few quick points FWIW:

1. I fully agree that foredecks are no place other than for the experienced and agile in anything approaching boisterous conditions. If you do venture up there, do make sure you are double clipped to both sides of the boat, as falling off (even with a harness) is very bad news and a full-on emergency in any racing boat. The notion of a nice flat deck in a F6/7, whilst possible, us tricky to achieve in anything smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier!
2. When I snuff in any wind I stand in front of the mast and clip a safety line around the mast and back to me. Looking into the sky whilst looking at the snuffer is inherently terrible for one's balance. I then blow the tack and snuff the sail. One can snuff blind (i.e. with no sight of the snuffer) standing on the companionway steps, but friction is a problem and you've no idea what's going on (not a great idea)
3. Flaming's point that one needs to know and practice other standard drop techniques (mostly blanketed behind main) if the snuffer screws up is entirely valid.
4. DJEs point that furling systems are better is, also IMHO, entirely valid as is his point that these are dosh-hungry gadgets!

So why do I use one? My asymmetric at 126m^2 is simply a bit of a bugger to handle. That said if the helm can keep the boat down and in the groove a drop behind the main is no big deal. But I'd advise great caution relying on an AP (other than top line racing kit) during such a drop: whereas a good helmsman will react as the sail is dropped and as every wave lifts the stern, basic AP's can only react when the compass senses a deviation in course and even then have no idea of how much to get the helm up or down. Things can get out of control pretty quickly and an accidental gybe in such circumstances is undesirable to say the least!

 

[geem]

I don't disagree with most of what Flaming, or Daydream Believer say, apart from their conclusion! Few quick points FWIW:

1. I fully agree that foredecks are no place other than for the experienced and agile in anything approaching boisterous conditions. If you do venture up there, do make sure you are double clipped to both sides of the boat, as falling off (even with a harness) is very bad news and a full-on emergency in any racing boat. The notion of a nice flat deck in a F6/7, whilst possible, us tricky to achieve in anything smaller than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier!
2. When I snuff in any wind I stand in front of the mast and clip a safety line around the mast and back to me. Looking into the sky whilst looking at the snuffer is inherently terrible for one's balance. I then blow the tack and snuff the sail. One can snuff blind (i.e. with no sight of the snuffer) standing on the companionway steps, but friction is a problem and you've no idea what's going on (not a great idea)
3. Flaming's point that one needs to know and practice other standard drop techniques (mostly blanketed behind main) if the snuffer screws up is entirely valid.
4. DJEs point that furling systems are better is, also IMHO, entirely valid as is his point that these are dosh-hungry gadgets!

So why do I use one? My asymmetric at 126m^2 is simply a bit of a bugger to handle. That said if the helm can keep the boat down and in the groove a drop behind the main is no big deal. But I'd advise great caution relying on an AP (other than top line racing kit) during such a drop: whereas a good helmsman will react as the sail is dropped and as every wave lifts the stern, basic AP's can only react when the compass senses a deviation in course and even then have no idea of how much to get the helm up or down. Things can get out of control pretty quickly and an accidental gybe in such circumstances is undesirable to say the least!

I doubt most people reading this thread are constipating having their spinnaker up in a F6/7 or even racing. Flying a spinnaker in the normal F3/4 that I am sure most people do is a completely different matter. our AP can easily cope so risks are low

 

[DJE]

I doubt most people reading this thread are constipating having their spinnaker up in a F6/7 ....

Spinnaker in that much wind usually produces the opposite of constipation .

 

[dom]

I doubt most people reading this thread are constipating having their spinnaker up in a F6/7 or even racing. Flying a spinnaker in the normal F3/4 that I am sure most people do is a completely different matter. our AP can easily cope so risks are low

True, but surely one should plan for the wind unexpectedly coming up a couple of points and know how to deal with it if it does? It's so easy to happen: whizzing along in a F4, then suddenly it's a 5 and one thinks "Hopefully this is just a squall", then "Oh no, it's risen to a F6!" and as you yourself say dropping in a F6 upwards is a completely different matter.

 

[dylanwinter]

the thing I disliked about the one I tried is that it distorted the top of the spinnaker and made it more likely to collapse

maybe it was the wrong snuffer

D

 

[dom]

the thing I disliked about the one I tried is that it distorted the top of the spinnaker and made it more likely to collapse

maybe it was the wrong snuffer

D

Indeed they do that, and one can easily see how a photo-bod like yourself would view snuffers as the archetypal carbuncle!

 

[Daydream believer]

True, but surely one should plan for the wind unexpectedly coming up a couple of points and know how to deal with it if it does? It's so easy to happen: whizzing along in a F4, then suddenly it's a 5 and one thinks "Hopefully this is just a squall", then "Oh no, it's risen to a F6!" and as you yourself say dropping in a F6 upwards is a completely different matter.

Actually one can carry a spinnaker in more wind than a cruising chute.
to sail with a cruising chute one does not point down wind so much but more upwind ( assuming chute not poled out to windward which tends to be unstable anyway)
With my cruising chute that soon overpowers the boat inducing heeling & luffing.
Wit a spinnaker of the same area one can take squalls almost dead aft & if the sail is sheeted properly it will not make the boat heel much

I regret not buying a spinnaker but getting a cruising chute instead

But dropping is not much different from dropping a chute under the boom or on the deck & down a hatch

 

[Seajet]

Only if you have the sea room, crew or fantastic autopilot to point dead downwind without gybing !

 

[Daydream believer]

Only if you have the sea room, crew or fantastic autopilot to point dead downwind without gybing !

Well actually I can sail down wind without using an autopilot-- - you should get out & practice a bit, it's fairly basic

As for sea room that is not much different for cruising chute as for a spinnaker- If you are going to run up a sandbank you change course-- well most do!!!

If you are referring to the drop -then being in the cockpit to do it means one is not far from the helm to attend to the autopilot talk to the helmsperson etc if needs be

& to reinforce my comment that a spinnaker can be held dead down wind in a more of a blow watch this you tube vid--Downwind Figaro sailing in 35+kts of wind.

I do not believe that they could have done that with a cruising chute as they would have to come round a bit & that would induce healing

 

[dom]

I'm with SJ all the way on this: for sure you'll see racing crews make it all look boringly simple; then again so does a competent lion tamer. FWIW (probably not much!) here are a few points we normally consider when thinking about a heavy air symmetric set, say in 20-22kts+:

1. Is the sail a heavy weather sail in terms of cloth, cut and size?
2. Is the boat a surfing boat such as the aforementioned Figaro - if not the boat will rapidly object to sailing a straight line. I don't personally have much experience of these boats, but ask anyone who sailed say an old Swan to tell the stories!
3. If the answer is Yes and Yes ...okay get all your ducks in a row, steady the boat and set. Try and find a lull and some flattish water if possible, then do it quickly. It can help to leave a bit of jib unrolled (or a small jib if set) to help prevent wraps
4. Pull the twings (barber-haulers) down hard/very-hard to inform the sail that you're in charge for today, and whilst you're at it wind the outboard end of the pole down a good bit to flatten the leading edge of the sail and pull the draft a bit forward.
5. Note: if you are setting a biggish dip-pole system light handed in such conditions you are either: (a) nuts, (b) a high-speed, high-talent orangutan.
6. As you turn dead downwind, as in DD's scenario, the boat will indeed flatten, so much so it may start to heel to windward ....and yes that's when the butterflies start dancing around your tummy!!!
7. At the merest hint of such a roll your trimmer(s) will immediately start to wind the sheet in to steady the sail. Another crew will be ready to ease the pole towards the forestay should the boat begins to roll to windward.
8. Mostly you'll be just fine ...but every now and then the boat just keeps rolling and that's not good (British understatement here) ...you are unfortunately now on the verge of a gybe-broach. First up make sure nobody is in the way of the mainsheet, or any other rope/moving-object and perhaps think about telling excess crew to sit down in a safe spot. By now the trimmer will by winding in the sheet with all his might and the helm doing his/her best to keep the boat steady.
9. We've got away with this more often than not, but by no means always. If it does go pear shaped you might come up quickly and be on your way. Or you might round up hard into the wind with your spinny flogging wildly. Sorting oneself out from here takes manpower, knowledge and a decent measure of stamina and agility. Upsetting as this mini-nightmare is (especially if you're light handed), do not panic. Consider letting discretion be the better part of valour and ditching the spinny for a passing rib to fetch out if the water. If there are no ribs and you're alone, be extra extra careful and do not let adrenaline fuelled crew members near the foredeck unless they truly know what they are doing.
10. All in all my personal preference (and that's all it is) is to keep symmetric spinnys (especially biggish ones) for the track.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I don't personally have much experience of these boats, but ask anyone who sailed say an old Swan to tell the stories!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Especially the sorts of words that were being used on this occasion...

Yes, those are the tops of the upper spreaders you are looking at.

 

[lw395]

I'm with SJ all the way on this: for sure you'll see racing crews make it all look boringly simple; then again so does a competent lion tamer. FWIW (probably not much!) here are a few points we normally consider when thinking about a heavy air symmetric set, say in 20-22kts+:

1. .......
2. All in all my personal preference (and that's all it is) is to keep symmetric spinnys (especially biggish ones) for the track.

I think we need to draw a distinction between light and heavy air here.
For a proper cruising boat, you may not want to get the extra half knot average by flying a sym kite in 15 or 20 knots true.
You may want to get the extra 1 or 2 knots it gives in 5 or 10 knots true.
Or just use it for amusement on sunny days instead of getting bored and putting the engine on. Possibly in the vain hope that some passer-by will take a nice photo of your boat...
If your boat has the pole and so forth, IMHO a sym kite is worth having now and then.

 

[lw395]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Especially the sorts of words that were being used on this occasion...

Yes, those are the tops of the upper spreaders you are looking at.

K737?
How old is that?
Why not dredge up some pix of the 'big class' with the kite rigged inside the forestay while you're about it?

 

[dom]

K737?
How old is that?
Why not dredge up some pix of the 'big class' with the kite rigged inside the forestay while you're about it?

Golly those masthead jobs truly were beasts! As a matter of interest, was that the era of those colourful blooper contraptions, which would be set outside the puny little mains in order to erm ....steady the boat. Getting all that macho clobber down at the leeward mark must have been interesting!

Edit: come to think of it changing boat design means that those deep, deep-on downwind techniques are rarely tested these days.

 

[Twister_Ken]

K737?
How old is that?

Built 1977, shot is from the early 1990's. We regularly used to place top five in the small class at the Swan Europeans, and won a good few pots in mixed fleet racing. My guess is it would still be competitive today, if well fettled, modern cloth and a good crew, given a dollop of age allowance. However, it's now an out-and-out family cruiser, last seen on a mooring up Itchenor way. K737 because the owner was a Boeing employee.

For Dom, we had a blooper aboard, but used it only to amuse ourselves. Consensus was it added negative speed, coz of all the faffing about setting and flying it, and distraction for the spinny trimmer and the helm. In those conditions I suspect that's the small kite, BTW!

You might also notice a drop line, coming from the centre of the kite. Usually someone would be stood in the forepeak and use it to pull the kite down on top of themselves when we blew the guy and let the halyard run. Nothing in the forepeak apart from triced-up pipe cots and sail bins.

 

[Daydream believer]

For Dom, we had a blooper aboard, but used it only to amuse ourselves. C

Real fun for the nuts amongst us
have not seen one on a boat for years - are they still used?

As for how this thread is developing about spinnaker flying I was not really referring to the b..lls our racing boat( although my vid link demonstrates the extreme) but to the average cruiser wishing to make good headway.
i do not fly the cruising chute in 20Kts of wind simply because it will just cause me to broach & being short crewed I would not be able to handle the sheets at once
But if a gust hit me when downwind sailing with a spinnaker I would not broach- if I kept my wits about me
Of course if I was on a reach that would be different.
But with a spinnaker i would probably not have to tack downwind on a reasonable downwind leg. & if a gust hit I could handle it for a while - The operative term being "gust" & if it went on for long then the sail would come down
having used spinnakers on several boats I just find them easier.
But to each his own -- To snuff or not to snuff - That was the question

 

[doris]

.
The thing with spinnakers is that there are a lot of different techniques available to suit the conditions. Dropping in light winds and a flat sea...? Fine, just lower it slowly and shove it into the bag as it comes down. Dropping when the wind has got up and you've only just realized...? Fine, just blow the tackline (or guy for a kite) and halyard and pull it under the boom and down the hatch. All done from the security of the companionway.

Amazing how regularly this comes up!

Sub 36 feet I can't see why one has them.
Bigger than that and short handed I am a fan. My Asym kites are 118^m and the correct snuffer is indispensable when solo or double handed.
When all is good, they are simple. If one gets a wrap/twists they are hugely helpful.
The only problems I have had over the last 18 years has been purely down to user stupidity.

Flaming. When I used them with symmetrical kites I still fired the guy rather than running it. Guys can and do jam = problems. Ping the buggers.

Always like a loose footed main so that if anything does go wrong a letter box is perfect.

Then I watch the nutters on Figaros with kites up in 35/40 kts and am almost glad I'm not 25 any more!