Are modern boats up to it?

[Scotty_Tradewind]

It's very common for owners of older (or no) boats to slam AWBs as 'floating caravans' but many a Beneteau has crossed oceans without problems. The notion that a 'proper boat' has narrow beam, long overhangs, teak deck and lots of dark wood down below ignores all the R&D that has gone on over the last 40 years. I don't own or want an AWB but I would be quite happy passage-making in one. They often sail far better than their more traditionally-styled contemporaries.

Partly rubbish of course snowleopard as you must know, boats of certain designs from small companies without the mass line production systems in place and without deep pockets or the know-how, just became too expensive to build.
No problem with awbs, just horses for courses and to fit budgets too.
I'll happily take a holiday again this summer in my pals awb as it's better suited to to the sailing in Turkey than my boat is.

 

[Nostrodamus]

Any of those modern or older boats out in todays wind? What was it blowing and how did the boat cope?

 

[Sans Bateau]

Glad to hear you had a good sail Scotty Tradewind, its nice to hear that someone has had a good sail. You really ought get out there all this week, you should be able to exceed 6knts often. Soon, as the wind is back down to F4 I suspect you'll be passed by a good many AWB's as you crawl along at, what about 4Knts?

Cant see the fascination myself though, only being able to get a decent turn of speed when the weather is sierra-hotel-India-tango. However, glad you enjoyed it.

 

[Tranona]

Glad to hear you had a good sail Scotty Tradewind, its nice to hear that someone has had a good sail. You really ought get out there all this week, you should be able to exceed 6knts often. Soon, as the wind is back down to F4 I suspect you'll be passed by a good many AWB's as you crawl along at, what about 4Knts?

Cant see the fascination myself though, only being able to get a decent turn of speed when the weather is sierra-hotel-India-tango. However, glad you enjoyed it.

Think for some the satisfaction is in defying the elements. Personnally I prefer to enjoy the benign bits. My little tootle on Easter Saturday out of Poole Harbour and back to Brownsea for lunch with the grandchildren having a great time was as good as it gets.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Soon, as the wind is back down to F4 I suspect you'll be passed by a good many AWB's as you crawl along at, what about 4Knts?

Cant see the fascination myself though,

Yes I know I'll be a bit frustrated at times being a racer at heart, but as the body gets older I had to do something to gain more comfort. With the shallow depth of pockets that I have my old boat has plenty of the comforts ....especially for swmbo - heating, hot water, shower, surround sound, space below, a decent sized galley with an oven (something we;ve never had before). Even a wardrobe!! and a big mirrior in the toilet - sorry heads. For me the satisfaction of a boat that I can go sailing on almost any day even if it's 'windy' and a proper nav desk that you can sit at with lots of gadgets and 'toy's to play with.
We were never wet (in fact we had the hood down) nor uncomfortable this w/e and that includes swmbo who is not too keen on anything too wild.
So you see some old barges may be big fat and slow but they can still make a passage when others are still in the marina.
I suspect when I'm a bit older in my seventies, I'll be crying out for a bilge keeler to do the Dylan thing (sorry Dylan) of going up small inlets.... or go back to my roots - the upper Thames reaches in an electric powered punt and a GnT on high days and holidays

Tranona.... I envy you the grandchildren bit.... mine just wont produce as yet and I'm already a pensioner!

 

[Tranona]

Tranona.... I envy you the grandchildren bit.... mine just wont produce as yet and I'm already a pensioner!

I am also a pensioner and started young with my own children, but they both followed the new pattern and we had a long wait. Then just like buses, three came along very quickly followed by a fourth 3 years later. Older ones just getting to the stage of being able to do useful things so hope I can enjoy watching them before I get ga-ga!

BTW they love the Bavaria because they can have their own cabin and there is somewhere for them to hide when there is any sailing hard work and they don't get in the way.

 

[Nostrodamus]

What is the fascination of putting two huge loos aboard a new boat when surely one would suffice? They may look nice but the space could be far better used as a workroom, locker space or other space.
Is it because people really need two loos or just the concept is likely to sell more boats in the manufactures eyes?

 

[Sans Bateau]

How does having two loos affect the way a boat sails?

 

[sighmoon]

What is the fascination of putting two huge loos aboard a new boat when surely one would suffice? They may look nice but the space could be far better used as a workroom, locker space or other space.
Is it because people really need two loos or just the concept is likely to sell more boats in the manufactures eyes?

AWBs are normally wider than MABs, so there is still plenty of stowage. My boat has 2 loos (they're not huge, but neither is my posterior), and it was not something I particularly wanted, but got anyway as the boat ticked all the other boxes. However, with 5 people on board, all having muesli for breakfast, 2 doesn't seem quite enough. I'd prefer to be in the position of using the heads as a locker, than wanting to use a locker as the heads.

You probably do an entirely different type of sailing to me as I can't think what I'd even use a workroom for.

 

[Nostrodamus]

How does having two loos affect the way a boat sails?

Galadriel,
I was looking at older boats as opposed to the design of modern boats and if designers had compomised sailing ability to make them look better to sell more.
In having two huge loos this may attract more family buyers or those that want the comforts they have at home. To fit two loos the space has to be found usually making the boat broader or taking the room from elsewhere.
To me I think that if a manufacturer specifies to the designer it has to have two loos then he has less options in the shape and design of the boat which could possibly compromise sailing ability.

 

[sighmoon]

To me I think that if a manufacturer specifies to the designer it has to have two loos then he has less options in the shape and design of the boat which could possibly compromise sailing ability.

Define 'sailing ability'. In your definition, which is better, a Corribee, or a Mini 6.50?

(BTW - in your profile, you say you have an Oyster 45. Is that not a modern boat with 2 loos?)

 

[Nostrodamus]

Define 'sailing ability'. In your definition, which is better, a Corribee, or a Mini 6.50?

(BTW - in your profile, you say you have an Oyster 45. Is that not a modern boat with 2 loos?)

It is not to compare a particular boat with another but evolution in general terms. Have boats evolved to make them better in sailing terms or evolved to sell more.
(our boat is 14 yrs old and yes we have two loos and a workroom but I would rather have just one loo and use the space elsewhere).
We looked at so many boats, old and new before buying but believe what we bought was the best compromise between sailing ability and comfort. Of course others will think differently and I hope they do.

 

[flaming]

It is not to compare a particular boat with another but evolution in general terms. Have boats evolved to make them better in sailing terms or evolved to sell more.

I thought the point was quite a valid one though. "Sails better" is relative. Do you mean faster, more seakindly, easier to manouever, better load carrying, or ... what?

So I can say - a modern boat is better because it's faster - and point to a wealth of handicap and race data that proves that.
But the next person might say - an older boat is better because it doesn't slam as much - and also be able to quantify that.
And the next person might say that their boat is best because examples have survived really extreme conditions - and they'd have a point too.

So as ever with boats, it's not an absolute "a is better than b", but a "What do YOU want to do with YOUR boat".

Get that right, and buy accordingly, and everyone else can take their opinion and shove it.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

How does having two loos affect the way a boat sails?

Because it speeds the women up and you can do more sailing!

 

[doug748]

So as ever with boats, it's not an absolute "a is better than b", but a "What do YOU want to do with YOUR boat".

I must agree.

I was watching one of Mr Dylan Winter's escapades the other day and thinking what advice he might be given on the Forum...

"I have bought a well used Mirror Offshore for and extended trip around the British Isles. Have I made a good choice?"

Fill in your own answers.

I used to enjoy a good "What boat" thread but some of the potty, entrenched views tend to wear you down after the first 5 years.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Because it speeds the women up and you can do more sailing!

Well spotted!

 

[Sans Bateau]

You can take two identical boats, of any vintage, one of them, with an old set of stretched dacron sails, the ones originally supplied by the manufacturer, or just old, and add to that a skipper who knows little of sail trim and that boat will sail like a pig.

Take the second boat, with a decent sails and deck gear and crew that can trim reasonably well and the boat will be a world of difference.

On that basis it is very difficult to say that AWB's dont sail as well as older boats and to assume the 'sail' has been designed out of them.

 

[Tranona]

There is a good review article by Peter Poland in latest July PBO that sums up the "Evolution" debate very well.

"Better" or "Worse" does not come into it. Understanding the outcomes from designers making different decisions on key design features is important in making your choice of boat.

Builders can only reflect what their customers want (or can afford) in the broadest sense. Price has a huge impact on buyers' views as to what suits them best. It may well be that older style boats are nearer to people's ideas of what is best for them, but if buying that style new the financial penalty is huge. However, because of the long life of the basic structure used ones are "cheap" and meet their needs - even allowing for the potential higher refit and maintenace costs.

 

[jonic]

There is a good review article by Peter Poland in latest July PBO that sums up the "Evolution" debate very well.

"Better" or "Worse" does not come into it. Understanding the outcomes from designers making different decisions on key design features is important in making your choice of boat.

Builders can only reflect what their customers want (or can afford) in the broadest sense. Price has a huge impact on buyers' views as to what suits them best. It may well be that older style boats are nearer to people's ideas of what is best for them, but if buying that style new the financial penalty is huge. However, because of the long life of the basic structure used ones are "cheap" and meet their needs - even allowing for the potential higher refit and maintenace costs.

As ever Tranona hits the nail on the head.

 

[haydude]

Yes they are, although some beasts like the new Janneau DS do not give me a great deal of confidence with their high air draft.

In general any new AWB will take a competent skipper and crew back home in a F8-F9.

But it does not mean that these boats would come out unscathed. One can get back home even after hours of motoring upwind in a F8 but with those flat bottoms the slamming will eventually weaken the structure.