Are modern boats up to it?

>I know it is difficult to compare one boat against another but I have been in similar really bad weather in a old Rival and a new Jeanneau. In the Rival we were still able to sail with a bit of canvas up. At no point did I doubt the boats seaworthy capabilities and she just plodded on to our destination (Fecamp) and the skipper even took a couple of hours to get some sleep. In the Jeanneau I had almost no sail out, the engine on and to be honest felt petrified athough I cannot say why. Both boats got to there given destinations with no problems at all but given the same conditions again I know which boat I would rather be in.

We had the same experience in a charted Beneteau in a full gale in St Martin versus a number of gales in our boat, a heavy displacement long keel steel ketch. I think the major difference is the older boats weren't designed with women in mind (monster aft cabins) and were designed to be sea kindly. Modern boats will turn into wind in a gust, broach offwind and surf. Older seakindly boats do none of that, ours certainly doesn't.

I think whether you buy a new boat or an older boat depends on what type of saling you want to do, neither boat is right for all or wrong for all.
 
tidclacy said:
Come on everybody. Surely its horses for courses. I have a Jeanneau but would not think about taking it out in what a Rival could cope with. Thank goodness the designers have followed the market and more people are enjoying our wonderful pastime.
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well perhaps you should, you will be pleasantly surprized, modern designs are every bit as seaworthy as the old ones, perhaps more so, the newer designs dont trip over their keels for example and they sail better in light airs. I've only had my Jeanneau out in 47knts but it sailed! the wind kept up for three days till it had had enough but nothing on the boat broke. Those cheap **** french sails that many deride didnt blow out (2 reefs in the main 70% genny), the rudder and the keel stayed on the hull did nt split and the baulkheads all stayed in place and no water came in the cockpit so I for one have every faith in modern design.
 
In our long keeled Pilot Cutter, we left the harbour when the forecast said F8 with gusts of F9 and "mer agitee" with a novice crew and my mother in law. The guys in the marina thought we were totally crazy.

The weather forecast turned out to be spot on as expected (stable weather pattern).










We had a very nice sail down the Costa Brava with just the stay sail up making a steady 7-8 knots. We did not even get the deck wet anywhere. That is just 31m^2 to move 35 tonnes (without counting the mother in law).

Even the sun was shining.
 
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... in similar really bad weather in a old Rival and a new Jeanneau ...
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And in other news, a Ford Focus didn't cope as well with ploughed fields as a LandRover.

Further tests revealed that the LandRover was extremely slow and uncomfortable on motorways.
 
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Joker said:
And in other news, a Ford Focus didn't cope as well with ploughed fields as a LandRover.

Further tests revealed that the LandRover was extremely slow and uncomfortable on motorways.
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As an owner of both an old Focus and new Landrover, I can report that the Landrover is better in both ploughed fields and motorways.

Plus as owner of mobo and Rival I can report that the mobo is faster but that's about it, in other respects mobo is but a very good fishing platform and not much else.
 
michaelchapman said:
In our long keeled Pilot Cutter, we left the harbour when the forecast said F8 with gusts of F9 and "mer agitee" with a novice crew and my mother in law. The guys in the marina thought we were totally crazy.

The weather forecast turned out to be spot on as expected (stable weather pattern).






We had a very nice sail down the Costa Brava with just the stay sail up making a steady 7-8 knots. We did not even get the deck wet anywhere. That is just 31m^2 to move 35 tonnes (without counting the mother in law).

Even the sun was shining.
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We did much the same but with no crew other than me and SWMBO one time when we sailed our Jeanneau across the Channel from Cherbourg to Poole at an average speed of 8kts. Didn't get wet either nor did we even need wet weather gear.

When we sold our lovely Jeanneau, the new owner with a mate as crew took her (neither had sailed or even motored her beforehand) straight from Poole to Le Havre. It was a week before Xmas, there was ice on the decks, ice on the pontoons, the forecast was W F7-8 and they left us with just 20 minutes of daylight. They had driving snow mid Channel and 40kt winds, but sailed the whole way at an overall average of only 7.5kts, they didn't want to push her first time out you see.

Not sure what all that proves though.:)
 
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Since we left Plymouth to sail down to the med we have met some lovely people on all types of boats doing the same journey, including Nicholsons, Swans, Moody's, Ben, Jen, Bav's, and all types of catamarans, even some on mobos.

We have sailed the same waters at around the same time and most of us have got to where we want to be. Yes occasionally we have had bad weather big swell etc but we never felt in danger.In reality checking my logs this morning we have sailed/motored about 90 hours a month averaged out over the year.(did not sail in the winter but did live aboard) Of those 90 hours on average about 5 hours were in very strong winds. So over a year we had about 60 hours of sailing in very strong winds. So for the other 8580 hours of the year we were either sailing in light/moderate wind, no wind or at anchor or in the marina. Our boat served us very well for the trip and even in the very strong winds we never felt in danger but I would admit it would have been more comfortable in a long keeler for those 70 hours.

All things considered I prefer the added comfort our boat gives for over 99% of the time than live in cramped conditions of the older style long keelers. I am prepared that for that this decision means for under 1% of the time we will feel less comfortable. I do stress this is not about danger but comfort.

Finally I have found the people we have met in all these different types of boats (including mobos) do not seemed concerned with ranking boats and people and the vast majority were very happy with the boat they had. Life is full of choices and it is a question of deciding what is important for you
 
jordanbasset said:
Since we left Plymouth to sail down to the med we have met some lovely people on all types of boats doing the same journey, including Nicholsons, Swans, Moody's, Ben, Jen, Bav's, and all types of catamarans, even some on mobos.

We have sailed the same waters at around the same time and most of us have got to where we want to be. Yes occasionally we have had bad weather big swell etc but we never felt in danger.In reality checking my logs this morning we have sailed/motored about 90 hours a month averaged out over the year.(did not sail in the winter but did live aboard) Of those 90 hours on average about 5 hours were in very strong winds. So over a year we had about 60 hours of sailing in very strong winds. So for the other 8580 hours of the year we were either sailing in light/moderate wind, no wind or at anchor or in the marina. Our boat served us very well for the trip and even in the very strong winds we never felt in danger but I would admit it would have been more comfortable in a long keeler for those 70 hours.

All things considered I prefer the added comfort our boat gives for over 99% of the time than live in cramped conditions of the older style long keelers. I am prepared that for that this decision means for under 1% of the time we will feel less comfortable. I do stress this is not about danger but comfort.

Finally I have found the people we have met in all these different types of boats (including mobos) do not seemed concerned with ranking boats and people and the vast majority were very happy with the boat they had. Life is full of choices and it is a question of deciding what is important for you
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+1
 
The original question was not so much about comparing older boats against newer ones but more the compromises modern boat builders may have made in order to sell more boats.
I suppose it is difficult not to compare the old against new as you need a base line to see how boats have evolved. In essence modern boats have become far more beamier, the stern has become flat or sugar scooped, the bow tends to be strait down into the water, materials are lighter, keel shapes have changed and some boats have lost a dedicated nav station. There also appears to be a lot less storage space inside, and winches etc have become smaller
The result of these changes gives the modern boat far more volume/ space for the length. A lot of this space is used to make it a home from home with tv’s microwaves and all mod cons.
I have to admit some of them look beautiful and comfortable inside and as boats are now sold more to families and couples the differences must certainly help sell it. I know in my own case what I wanted in a boat and what my wife wanted were quite different.
Most new boats are also so much cheaper than there yesteryear counterparts due to modern manufacturing materials and techniques when they can be mass produced.
The crux of the original question was, are these changes compromising the sailing ability of the boat and ultimately making them less seaworthy.
I am no designer but I am pretty sure the design and shape of the ultimate safe sailing boat would be quiet a long way from a modern production yacht.
Again I might be wrong and stand to be corrected but it is a forum for all different views.

To balance this argument out a bit I could say
Wouldn’t you rather get rid of that old money sucking boat of yours an get a new production boat.
They are brighter, have far more room and you could have a decent bed rather than sleeping in a old coffin that you need to be a contortionist to get into. Older boats are often hard to steer in reverse, don’t point as high into the wind, and are slower. You need at least a force four to get her sailing well. The engine is often adapted from a tractor engine and needs constant love and attention. It is difficult to get back aboard once you have had that swim. Sailing surely is about fun and being out there, not trying to source the latest part to go wrong and trying to work out how to pay for it.
Boats have evolved and older designs are just that, old. The design of boats now is how they should be.
Surely a modern production boat is far better?
 
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Nostrodamus said:
The crux of the original question was, are these changes compromising the sailing ability of the boat and ultimately making them less seaworthy.
I am no designer but I am pretty sure the design and shape of the ultimate safe sailing boat would be quiet a long way from a modern production yacht.
Again I might be wrong and stand to be corrected but it is a forum for all different views.
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No.They sail differently. And boat always have and always will sink given a particular set of circumstances.
No use looking at AVS or STIX numbers either, as boats like the well respected Ovni are the bumble bees of the sea - theoretically they are unseaworthy.

In my first club there were several lifeboats converted converted to cruisers, they would not claw to windward off a lee shore, and were dog slow, but we seem to be conveniently forgetting what most family cruisers were - home fitted or home built, in plywood or steel welded by non coded people. Most of them lived.
Also, you really ought to go look at the light construction and shape of the new generation ocean racers such as Ecover - they are approx the same shape as todays cruisers, but way more extreme.
Jordanbasset has it nailed.
 
Nostrodamus said:
The original question was not so much about comparing older boats against newer ones but more the compromises modern boat builders may have made in order to sell more boats.
I suppose it is difficult not to compare the old against new as you need a base line to see how boats have evolved. In essence modern boats have become far more beamier, the stern has become flat or sugar scooped, the bow tends to be strait down into the water, materials are lighter, keel shapes have changed and some boats have lost a dedicated nav station. There also appears to be a lot less storage space inside, and winches etc have become smaller
The result of these changes gives the modern boat far more volume/ space for the length. A lot of this space is used to make it a home from home with tv’s microwaves and all mod cons.
I have to admit some of them look beautiful and comfortable inside and as boats are now sold more to families and couples the differences must certainly help sell it. I know in my own case what I wanted in a boat and what my wife wanted were quite different.
Most new boats are also so much cheaper than there yesteryear counterparts due to modern manufacturing materials and techniques when they can be mass produced.
The crux of the original question was, are these changes compromising the sailing ability of the boat and ultimately making them less seaworthy.
I am no designer but I am pretty sure the design and shape of the ultimate safe sailing boat would be quiet a long way from a modern production yacht.
Again I might be wrong and stand to be corrected but it is a forum for all different views.

To balance this argument out a bit I could say
Wouldn’t you rather get rid of that old money sucking boat of yours an get a new production boat.
They are brighter, have far more room and you could have a decent bed rather than sleeping in a old coffin that you need to be a contortionist to get into. Older boats are often hard to steer in reverse, don’t point as high into the wind, and are slower. You need at least a force four to get her sailing well. The engine is often adapted from a tractor engine and needs constant love and attention. It is difficult to get back aboard once you have had that swim. Sailing surely is about fun and being out there, not trying to source the latest part to go wrong and trying to work out how to pay for it.
Boats have evolved and older designs are just that, old. The design of boats now is how they should be.
Surely a modern production boat is far better?
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And you learnt all that from posting the 'same-old-same-old' ?

Or as I suspect you knew it all along.
 
Bav34 said:
And you learnt all that from posting the 'same-old-same-old' ?

Or as I suspect you knew it all along.
Click to expand...

If you want to comment on the actual question I would like to hear your views as I am intrested in what you have to say as I am with anyone else who wants to comment.
If you just want to sell anti foul then there are other places to do so.
 
jordanbasset said:
Since we left Plymouth to sail down to the med we have met some lovely people on all types of boats doing the same journey, including Nicholsons, Swans, Moody's, Ben, Jen, Bav's, and all types of catamarans, even some on mobos.

We have sailed the same waters at around the same time and most of us have got to where we want to be. Yes occasionally we have had bad weather big swell etc but we never felt in danger.In reality checking my logs this morning we have sailed/motored about 90 hours a month averaged out over the year.(did not sail in the winter but did live aboard) Of those 90 hours on average about 5 hours were in very strong winds. So over a year we had about 60 hours of sailing in very strong winds. So for the other 8580 hours of the year we were either sailing in light/moderate wind, no wind or at anchor or in the marina. Our boat served us very well for the trip and even in the very strong winds we never felt in danger but I would admit it would have been more comfortable in a long keeler for those 70 hours.

All things considered I prefer the added comfort our boat gives for over 99% of the time than live in cramped conditions of the older style long keelers. I am prepared that for that this decision means for under 1% of the time we will feel less comfortable. I do stress this is not about danger but comfort.

Finally I have found the people we have met in all these different types of boats (including mobos) do not seemed concerned with ranking boats and people and the vast majority were very happy with the boat they had. Life is full of choices and it is a question of deciding what is important for you
Click to expand...

+1 more! Very well said.

We are now at another major change point in our boating life cycle. After over 40 years of sail we are going to a powerboat when we move out of bricks and mortar to live on board in the USA. This is a whole new venture and involved a lot of soul searching, but the reality is we primarily need comfortable living and to keep that as long as possible as we get older so that we are not forced back ashore or at least not until we are really past it. Our choice too is influenced by our intended cruising area of the east coast USA, where the snowbird run from Chesapeake to Florida down mostly the Intra Coastal Waterway means that even the sailboats motor. That said, some of the boats we are looking at have a range of 1,500mls under power, some even more and there are some that have completed transats and even round the world trips. Now it might well be thought that ocean crossing in sub 50ft mobos is a definite no no, but that would be as incorrect as assuming it is only the prerogative of the old style sailboats.

Every boat is different, every design is different and to lump ALL modern designs into the floating caravan category is as totally wrong as lumping all pre 1980s boats into the Southern Ocean in winter category.
 
Nostrodamus said:
Having lived aboard for a while in a Marina it is noticeable that only about 10% of the boats actually go out sailing. The rest get visitors at the weekends that immediately get the drinks out and just sit there before going home.
Modern boats are .......
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I still think that you knew the answer to your question: Yes.

You live in a marina

You state that only 10% of the boats go out sailing.

You then link that to MODERN boats. Why?

From that I have to guess that the 10% that did go out were older boats.

I also have to imagine that during the period that the wind speed varied from calm through F9.

Assuming that it wasn't blowing storm force all the time I now have a picture of 90% of modern boats not being used WHATEVER the weather.

Are modern boats up to it? linked to perceived usage linked to unknown weather really doesn't make sense.

Had you observed that 'in the three months that I have been storm bound in x I noticed that the only boat movements were heavy displacement boats ... Are modern boats up to it?' the question is clear and valid.

I have posted before that when holidaying around The Morbihan in 2007 the weather was atrocious. Constant Force SEVENS ... not eights or nines ... sevens.

It is a fact that the marinas up the whole of that coast of France were FULL of every sort of yacht. NOBODY moved until there was a lull then EVERYBODY moved. Many boats were left behind whilst the owners flew home to get back to work. There were so many boats dashing from port to port The Raz resembled The Needles during the Round the Island race!

So, again, the answer to your age-old question is 'yes'.

But you did know that didn't you?

Thanks for drawing attention to my antifoul still for sale ... a bit like Ubergeeks boat :D
 
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