Are marinas a rip off?

[IanPoole2]

I have just read the "juristiction of skipper" thread and MDL came in for a bit of stick.
Here on the North Essex coast we do n't have that many marina's, in fact on the river where my mooring is there are none, though Brighlingsea may soon be getting one.
My mooring is a drying river mooring, suits me, suits my boat, but as the person I sail with is getting on a bit I was toying with the idea of moving to a marina.
Do they offer good value for money? Are people just complaining about the cost? especially when comparing UK prices with subsidised continental marina's.
Is it the lack of alternatives, especially on the solent?

 

[snowleopard]

the object of a business..

is to maximise profit. the shareholders would take a dim view of a marina operator who charged half the price the customer was prepared to pay and thus reduced profit.

The only way we will reduce marina prices is by voting with our cheque books. if a significant proportion of us opted for less convenient berths and the majority who buy boats and never used them gave it up, prices would tumble.

not going to happen, is it?

 

[IanPoole2]

Re: the object of a business..

Agreed - most marina owners will charge what the market will bear, and people seem quite prepared to put up with the cost. So, back to the question, is it because there is a lack of alternatives, or is the only alternative to the "keep you feet dry" marina's involve wallowing around in the mud?.
It seems to me people want cheap, or at least cheaper marina's. If so, what services would people go without - electricity, security?

 

[bedouin]

Clearly there are enough people out there you don't think they are being ripped off to keep the marinas full. (I am not one of them).

 

[jwatson]

Marinas, in key locations, are pretty much full with waiting lists. Market forces and all that.
The people that whine most about price are mostly those that cannot/will not pay the money to be in marinas/never have been/never will be.
Reality is that prices for marinas will not come down significantly unless there is more stock available (unlikely in the short term) or if customers want less service.
On that last point, I could reduce MDL prices by a large factor, but my customers tell me they do not want the reduction in service levels that would make this do-able.
It is a worthy debate though and one I am willing to enter at any time. If boating, in the round, becomes 'too expensive' or 'elitist' the industry will suffer big time.
Regards,
John Watson
MD
MDL

 

[IanPoole2]

Thanks

... for the comments - that seems to highlight a gap in the market. There must be a large difference between the South coast (really the solent) and the rest of the UK. Poole to Portsmouth there seems to be limited scope for expansion. Here on the East Coast there seems to be plenty of empty river, but possibly less of a catchment area. Also, perhaps here water users seem to be more "ordinary" folk, less inclined to spend vast (for some) sums on (what is in reality to most) a hobby.

 

[JOHNOO]

I use my boat all year and through the Summer months I can be away for up to 12 weeks at a time. As the marina's policy is not to refund for these months I am absent (even though they may be reletting my berth) I am paying for berthing wherever I visit plus the marina berth I am not using. This does not seem to me to be either fair or an incentive to those who are retired and on a fixed income.
I am with MDL and have been for a number of years perhaps John Watson could look into this for the benefit of those who use their boats frequently.

 

[Sybarite]

Here we ago again about subsidized continental operations.

What subsidies? Remember that employers in France have social charges - over and above gross salaries - of over 60% on average. (The top class public transport and medical services do have a cost ..!)

The marina group that I deal with in S Brittany manages 9 marinas with a sales turnover of €10.1m; they have 92 employees who cost on average €33.3k each, they pay €4.2m in port concessions and they make a profit albeit small. They also got €67k in grants probably related to job creation. This information was taken from their audited 2001 accounts which are a matter of public record.

The company is a 'société d'économie mixte' ie a joint venture between the local Chambers of Commerce who give the concessions, and a commercial enterprise.

I have just got my invoice for 2003 for a Feeling 920 (space = 32' x 12'). It is for €1382 (approx £900 incl VAT @ 19.6%). If I pay by month end I get a 3% discount or I can pay in 6 monthly instalments without extra cost. I have (unlimited) free electricity and water on the pontoon and free use of the showers. I also have the first two nights free at any of the other 8 marinas in the Morbihan. Use of the slip for srubbing and painting is free (although haul out is extra) and free storage on land if required in the winter.

And the port employees couldn't be nicer.

 

[clyst]

Take your point John but what about a possible two tier system of marinas ie one priced as is and one with only the basic facilities like no showers ,shops ,shore supplies or "dolly" girls in reception ie pared to the bone !! Is it possible or am I dreaming???

Cheers

Terry

 

[rhinorhino]

John,
Once again you argue that you could offer much lower prices for a "bare bones" marina service, turning to specific cases, what does MDL offer at Hamble Point that isn't charged extra for? Water, the office (but their function is at least in part to raise revenue) Toilets what else? How much do these services cost?
How cheap would a "bare bones" service be, 50%? Please tell.
I suspect that Hamble point is a bit of a cash cow for you am I wrong?

 

[jimboaw]

The terms and conditions imposed by folks like MDL on berth "owners" in developements like "Ocean Village" So'ton was one of the reasons I sold my property there after five years. I went off cruising for a year and let an impoverished pal have my berth F.O.C . Low and behold a rather rude letter from MDL caught up with me in The Canaries. to the effect that "They had reason to believe that the boat occupying ** was not mine" . A "bill of sale" and a fax fixed that. Other berth "owners" had the same problems. Those that did'nt even own boats were payed a pittance by MDL for the use of "their" slips and denied the right to rent at a market rate.
The most rediculous MDL decision was a refusal to give property owners keys to the toilet facility at OV. The excuse being that we were expected to use our own!!!. Great. unless you are caught short! Those of you familar with OV will know how far you would have to walk if you lived on the point.
Finally, "No Live Aboards" The Dockmaster at O.V. was a live aboard.
I have no regrets about dumping my O.V. place and I would never again consider becoming involved with this company on any level.

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: the object of a business..

Now there is the crux, the marina in its self creates a security problem, easy access, quiet times etc. You cannot switch of the security for which the marina has created its own need.

Electricity, to charge your batteries, wind gens are not welcome in marinas due to the proximity of other vessels so you need power.

Water is available on our fuel pontoon, it belongs to the harbour master, obviously water is available at the marina pontoons too.

I am in Pwllheli, we are on a trot mooring, which gives fairly good security, there is enough distance from other vessels to allow a wind gen which causes far less irritation to other vessels. We sail regularly so stopping for water on the way in or out is not a problem. I pay ridiculously less than the marina users.

But I would love to be able to step aboard. We will use the marina by the hour to load, and we did stop on the visitors berth at new year so we could walk to the club. I will not pay the premium though.

You takes your choices, while there is in this instance a 3 year waiting list, prices are not going to fall. The management at Pwllheli seem excellent though, and have often waved charges to me for short stops on the pontoon for loading etc. Probably why they have a waiting list, they are also very friendly and helpfull, but I just can't justify the cost personally.

Just a small thing, I do enjoy the privacy of a mooring, in summer it is like piccadilly circus on the pontoons, I can if I want sit in the sun in peace. Just a thought.

Julian

http://www.ukstaffords.com

 

[johna]

John
Please set out your terms for the "large factor" reduction as a berth holder of over six years with MDL I could be very interested.

John Arrowsmith

PS You promised to reply to my suggestion in August 2002 for swapping marinas similar to timeshare.

 

[rhinorhino]

John,
I would be likewise very interested in such a reduction (see post above).
This is at least the third time you have mentioned this idea, can we have figures please.
You say your customers don't want it, what evidence is this based on, there are at least two on this forum who might disagree?
I value your contribution to the forum, but I would like evidence it is more than PR.

 

[lauradee]

MDL and storage charges

bit of a side track this, but nice to have the opportunity to talk to the man himself.
just bought my boat off a broker on hamble point. needed to lo loader to north wales, arranged for a specialised transporter to bring up. bought on the 5th nov, the transport were ready to move on the 7th. wasnt possible because MDL couldnt lift the boat until the 14th. got a bill off the broker to "cover MDL charges" for storage !!
hey hang!! on couldnt move cause MDL couldnt lift (was told that they dont allow other cranes onsite) said that if i had known about this i would have launched and removed from other site. oh no you wouldnt cause if MDL is too busy too lift onto wagon its too busy to lift into water!! was also told that i was darned lucky to get a lift so quickly!!
so because MDL cant lift because they are busy we have to pay storage charges until they can? sounds like a very profitable coincidence to me and something the monopoly commission should be looking at.
as it happens the broker accepted my protestations and agreed to not pass on the charges to me.
so to answer the question what do i think of marinas, well one company in particular will not get my business unless the MD can change my mind !!
stu

 

[jwatson]

You raise a fair point Johnoo and one I wish I had resolved earlier in my watch.
This is high on our list and we will be making a statement soon.
Regards,
John

 

[Guest]

Re: MDL and storage charges

cant see that marina prices are any more of a rip off than london house prices. it's all down to supply and demand, and the supply bit is linked, like house prices, to planning permissions.

incidentally, where supply is short on the continent (eg, Western Med) marina prices are often way more than UK south coast levels.

marinas are ports and, i believe, exempt from monopolies and mergers commission investigation.

 

[jwatson]

Rhino rhino - did you get my response or did I hit wrong key?

 

[jwatson]

Jimboaw
Sorry to read your post. You seem to be in a more hassle free environment these days!
Enjoy.

 

[jwatson]

Yes johna, I did say on 9 August last year I would revert and I will do so.