Are Bavaria owners wusses when their keels fall off?

[Tidewaiter2]

In answer to the op's question ...... Clearly not.

If we were wusses we would not be going around sailing in a death trap.

In fact, if you want to find some real big balled sailors... Odds are they are driving a bavaria...

They are out every day, dicing with death, their detachable keels like a gun to their heads! But does it stop them? HELL NO! Our wives have bigger balls than you non bavaria drivers, and so do our kids! They are right there next to us! staring death in the Face!

C'mon then??? Who wants some???!!! YOU haven't got the balls to drive a bavaria! All you full keel pussies!

And in the marina car park is their BMW, or is it an Audi, piggybacked on the back of their wives Navarra, which in turn is on the back of their kids BigFoot
All with external speakers, plugged into the marina power, blaring "Macho Macho Man", with hard hats and tight wet T shirt pimping down both sides!

NB, both hard hats and T shirts are not the wussy hi-vis variety:excitement:

 

[GrahamM376]

Which exact design are you talking about? This one?

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5264

Looks like the one in the link.

 

[Simondjuk]

From memory, the main comment concerned sail area/displacement ratio and having to shorten the boom and reduce sail area to get compliance with coding regs for ocean. This doesn't just apply to this particular make/model, it was a discussion about the RCD classifications having a much lower standard than required under various countries criteria for commercial use, leaving many RCD so-called ocean boats being restricted to 60 miles offshore.

So the issue you raise is one which might just as likely have applied to the Westerly had it not been pre-RCD.

 

[photodog]

And in the marina car park is their BMW, or is it an Audi, piggybacked on the back of their wives Navarra, which in turn is on the back of their kids BigFoot
All with external speakers, plugged into the marina power, blaring "Macho Macho Man", with hard hats and tight wet T shirt pimping down both sides!

NB, both hard hats and T shirts are not the wussy hi-vis variety:excitement:

 

[Tranona]

Slight difference, one's up to 40 years old and, if it has problems, has most likely been bumping around on a drying mud berth for years, the other is a modern mass produced design which, although RCD Ocean category, can't be UK coded for such use without mods.

That is very misleading as very few production boats can meet the coding requirements for Ocean without extensive modifications.

There is little direct connection between Cat A of the RCD and MCA coding. The two systems have different objectives and are based on different criteria.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

There's a Bav36 25 meters from me about to have its very wobbly keel removed. Boats quite often hit the mud & sand banks around here but only Bavs seem to get damaged.

The Bav 36 isn't an extreme design, there's no reason for it to be especially prone to keel failure.

I suspect you've read about that high profile Bav Match and are suffering from a bit of confirmation bias - remembering damaged Bavs and forgetting non-Bavs that get damaged. Even so, the sample much be rather small.

This doesn't just apply to this particular make/model

In which case it was rather misleading to mention it, and suggests more conformation bias. You hear the RCD and MCA standards aren't comparable, and in your mind you've made that into a failing of one specific manufacturer. In fact it's not a failure and it doesn't apply uniquely to Bavarias.

 

[mrming]

In answer to the op's question ...... Clearly not.

If we were wusses we would not be going around sailing in a death trap.

In fact, if you want to find some real big balled sailors... Odds are they are driving a bavaria...

They are out every day, dicing with death, their detachable keels like a gun to their heads! But does it stop them? HELL NO! Our wives have bigger balls than you non bavaria drivers, and so do our kids! They are right there next to us! staring death in the Face!

C'mon then??? Who wants some???!!! YOU haven't got the balls to drive a bavaria! All you full keel pussies!

Best. Response. Ever.

 

[GrahamM376]

So the issue you raise is one which might just as likely have applied to the Westerly had it not been pre-RCD.

There are different issues here, the Westerlies with the keel problems are up to 40 years old, yes they had a design flaw in the keel stubs which became most evident with some in drying mud berths, not the occasional grounding. I haven't a clue what class they have been post RCD.

My point is that out of literally hundreds of boats passing through this one yard, I personally have now seen 2 Bavarias in 2 years with damaged keels and not one of another make with similar problems. I have also seen a couple elsewhere over the past few years. Don't know what's broken on the current one but if the keel is moved from side to side with one hand, the bottom of the hull flexes over quite a large area. No way will anyone convince me they aren't a weak design which, with modern materials and many years of design knowledge, shouldn't happen.

 

[GrahamM376]

That is very misleading as very few production boats can meet the coding requirements for Ocean without extensive modifications.

There is little direct connection between Cat A of the RCD and MCA coding. The two systems have different objectives and are based on different criteria.

The objectives of MCA (and other nationalities) coding are all safety related and not all boats fail because of stability problems, it's quite often a hatch or equipment problem. The RCD design criteria was an agreement between manufactuers to build boats to a minimum standard to meet different categories of seaworthyness which, in the eyes of regulatory authorities is not good enough in the case of some boats/manufacturers.

 

[wully1]

There is little direct connection between Cat A of the RCD and MCA coding. The two systems have different objectives and are based on different criteria.

Ones based on a concern for safety, ones a useless euro bollix waste of time

 

[markhomer]

You should take a tour round the wrst coast of scotland yards , ardfern partucularily usually have a good selection of yats off their keels , all sorts !!! Even a maxi last year , i touched three times last year , all in marinas !!! Largs , rhu and dunoon , largs being the most spectacular , drying out in berth ! , keel fine

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Glad to see lj being worn, jic keel failure, particularly as hair line receding dramatically, which, given posn. on bows could lead to stability issues:hororr:

 

[photodog]

Glad to see lj being worn, jic keel failure, particularly as hair line receding dramatically, which, given posn. on bows could lead to stability issues:hororr:

Dude that is one hardcore pic. Single handing in the pulpit, doing a selfie with a 3 grand camera At arms length whilst wearing monster dogs and not careing about the hair line.

In December.

I've probably got johnny cash on as well.

I have to wear the lj cause swmbo tells me to.

 

[Tranona]

The objectives of MCA (and other nationalities) coding are all safety related and not all boats fail because of stability problems, it's quite often a hatch or equipment problem. The RCD design criteria was an agreement between manufactuers to build boats to a minimum standard to meet different categories of seaworthyness which, in the eyes of regulatory authorities is not good enough in the case of some boats/manufacturers.

You seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of the RCD and MCA coding. The latter is for commercial boats and the former for leisure boats. It is not unusual for standards for commercial operation to be different from leisure, and for products designed to one standard to need modifications in order to meet another.

Whether that makes one "safer" than the other is a moot point. Hundreds of production boats built to category A (and many that would not meet even C) successfully and safely cross oceans every year. Are they unsafe because they do not meet the requirements of the MCA? As an extreme example, the first boat built to the design of one of my boats successfully sailed from Singapore to the UK - yet my boat would not meet Category C.

To criticise a boat because it does not meet a standard that it was not designed to meet is just nonsense. There is of course a case for having another international (or at least European) standard that reflects the higher demands of commercial operation in any conditions, but given how much variation there is in such national standards (from none at all to very prescriptive) the chances of getting agreement to such a standard are small.

So builders of leisure boats will design and build them according to the agreed standard. Commercial operators will select boats (or have them designed) that require the minimum amount of work required in order to meet the required standard for their state of registration.

 

[Koeketiene]

I have to wear the lj cause swmbo tells me to.

Wuss.

Real men wouldn't allow any lip from their wives.

 

[KellysEye]

>leaving many RCD so-called ocean boats being restricted to 60 miles offshore.

I think the reason for that was the French yacht manufactures hijacked the RCD and forced them to put AWB's in the ocean category. Having said that a lot of AWB's do go ocean sailing.

 

[sighmoon]

There's a Bav36 25 meters from me about to have its very wobbly keel removed. Boats quite often hit the mud & sand banks around here but only Bavs seem to get damaged.

Not true. There's a large, premium Swedish boat in our yard having lots of remedial work done having stacked the keel at 6 kts. The keel stayed attached to the hull, but the superstructure didn't. Then the famous Jeanneau which sailed from Scilly with no keel.

I wonder why more boats don't have Dehler style keel bumpers:

(4:25 on - the rest of it's the bow)

 

[GrahamM376]

>leaving many RCD so-called ocean boats being restricted to 60 miles offshore.

I think the reason for that was the French yacht manufactures hijacked the RCD and forced them to put AWB's in the ocean category. Having said that a lot of AWB's do go ocean sailing.

Yes, a lot of AWBs go ocean sailing but, they are, in the case of the cheaper "caravans" light build quality and many don't even have a sea berth or safe galley for use in rough conditions. Reading up about suitable "blue water" hull shapes shows few if any of the mass production boats come anywhere near, yet the're being sold as such.

A 4 wheel drive Fiat Panda will motor through mud and across wet grass but I'd rather have a Landrover for when it gets tough. The RCD categories are in many respects worthless as true indication of what the boat is suitable for.

 

[mrming]

Yes, a lot of AWBs go ocean sailing but, they are, in the case of the cheaper "caravans" light build quality and many don't even have a sea berth or safe galley for use in rough conditions. Reading up about suitable "blue water" hull shapes shows few if any of the mass production boats come anywhere near, yet the're being sold as such.

A 4 wheel drive Fiat Panda will motor through mud and across wet grass but I'd rather have a Landrover for when it gets tough. The RCD categories are in many respects worthless as true indication of what the boat is suitable for.

The AWB catch all probably doesn't help in this discussion. I certainly wouldn't go ocean sailing in a boat designed for coastal cruising unless I knew the boat well and had made modifications to overcome some of the shortcomings you've mentioned.

There are however boats like the Sun Fast 3200 which would probably fall under the AWB catch all on here but are actually a well set up short handed offshore race boat with a sensible galley design and which can be specified with lee cloths for the saloon berths. It might not be everyone's cup of tea in terms of design and performance, but there's no doubt the boat is suitable for offshore work.

 

[Simondjuk]

Yes, a lot of AWBs go ocean sailing but, they are, in the case of the cheaper "caravans" light build quality and many don't even have a sea berth or safe galley for use in rough conditions. Reading up about suitable "blue water" hull shapes shows few if any of the mass production boats come anywhere near, yet the're being sold as such.

A 4 wheel drive Fiat Panda will motor through mud and across wet grass but I'd rather have a Landrover for when it gets tough. The RCD categories are in many respects worthless as true indication of what the boat is suitable for.

I assume you class Hallberg Rassys as mass produced AWB caravans then? Ones of a similar vintage to my very cheap mass produced AWB caravan have a similar ballast ratio, similar hull form, a rudder that's mounted on a skeg so small as to offer almost no protection, and have a build of a similar weight.

I also have seven very useable sea berths by virtue of lee cloths and a galley I can brace myself firmly into.

Granted, I don't have a long keel or full skeg rudder, but then neither do the majority of the boats clocking up serious mileage around the world. I don't have a trailing log, use a leadline by routine or communicate by Aldis lamp either. The dark ages are behind us afterall and the world has moved on.