Are Bavaria owners wusses when their keels fall off?

[Simondjuk]

I will be more than astonished if the floors inside this boat are not sheared and the hull cracked the length of the keel on both sides and also the interior furniture and wood work sheared off in the area around the keel.
I doubt any GRP boat with a fin keel would survive an impact like this without serious damage no matter what make it is.


On the way through the yard to my boat there are various makes of boats in various states of repair to the keel pans after groundings. The only similarity they have is that currently they are all ' AWB's ' Bavs, Bennies, Jaenneaus, Dufour.... Currently no Moody's or Halberg Rassy which are the second most popular makes of boats in the yard. ( numbers from Wullys Dodgy Surveys dot com ) The various other makes in the yard easily outnumber the AWB's but hardly ever feature in the repair shed.

Why is this? Apart from the slightly higher number of AWB's - are AWB owners more careless/ useless/ adventurous or more likely to let some idiot charterer loose on their boat?

Personally I would not buy a Bavaria or any French GRP boat ( apart from maybe an Amel) built after about 1984 as they just seem so flimsy and cheaply built, and getting cheaper and nastier looking - for the type of sailing 90% of us do they are perfectly adequate and the keels won't just fall off.

Like I said, I too would be surprised if the grid wasn't in some way damaged or detached.

As I also said, I suspect the reason Bavs suffer more grounding damage than other makes is that they are the boat of choice for charter and school ops. Read, novice sailors finding the hard stuff.

It could be observed that given the mileage such boats rack up in all conditions, and the pasting and abuse the suffer whilst doing so, that they cope pretty well. If the didn't, they'd be falling apart and sinking left, right and centre, and you could also bet your bottom dollar that the schools and charter companies wouldn't keep buying them. Afterall, a broken boat can't earn money.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I suspect the reason Bavs suffer more grounding damage than other makes

Is there any evidence that Bavs suffer more grounding damage than other makes? I haven't seen it.

 

[sighmoon]

Hmmm... Dehlers video of a Dehler undergoing crash tests. Let me think about that.

So where are all the keel-less Dehlers?

From an engineering standpoint, it's feasible - there's a rubber bumper on the keel.

 

[markhomer]

Hitting 7.5 kts+ on a beat would pace a 40.7 quite easily (see Farr design's polars on P3 of this link.)
http://www.blur.se/polar/first407_performance_prediction.pdf

The 40.7 is tweakable, but at some point the laws of aero- and fluid-dynamics start to object. Off-wind the 40.7 can just about deliver 12.5kts+ at 140 degrees true, but only with colored sails up; the apparent wind will be pulled forward. Go deeper and the apparent wind starts to fall off and you go slower.

I've nothing at all against Bavs, but you might want to check the calibration of your speedo.

Ho ho

Was down wind dead run full sail force 6 , two handed race and my crew a 40.7 owner was most impressed , speed was matched on log and gps , as i say surfing waves approaching cumbraes heading north , gets shallower there and waves stack up a bit , sustaining 9 ish knots with 13.5 when holding a wave , which i was suprised it would do for a caravan

Still the moody 33 somethings ,near only boats in fleet to fly kites , chasing hard after the beat , recording 15 knot surges


Any way nuff said on my part , you can believe what you like

Ps done enough races in the cockpit of a 40.7 to know the numbers

 

[photodog]

Quote Originally Posted by photodog View Post
They both sail like lorries to begin with.... ( no insult intended...)


No insult intended !!!!! ,, what was the intention then !


what a load of uniformed *******s gets spouted with such authority . both boats are capable of very good sailing performance upwind and down , the B38 as I have one and spend more attention to is particularily known for its performance anyone that claims otherwise is a fool and ready for a surprise if they ever come up against one .

I think the misconceptions arise because many are sailed by relatively inexperienced sailors , they can be a handful to those new to the game , the concept of pulling sails in upwind seems an alien concept to some , backstay kicker and outhaul too .

Ive raced for over 40 years dinghys , cats and monohulls and cant complain about performance , though the nut on the helm sometimes goes the wrong way ! , 7.5knts + upwind usual and max 13.5 down , sustained surfing (white sailed ) .

but hey keep calling them Lorries and scare folks about keels falling off, lets folk like me have far bigger and newer boats for our money .

Its a horror to think those considering buying boats research forums such as this .



Back under my rock I go !

Uhhh.. Mark. I sail a bavaria of that age as well.


The 38 and 376 both sail like lorries. That's not a bad thing. They are both steady reliable solid boats, good family long distance cruisers. But they ain't cruiser racers...... And yes, I have sailed em both.... And a lot of others around that age and size.

So don't go off on one.

 

[markhomer]

You doing something wrong

Dont recall calling them cruiser racers , fast cruiser , in right conditions

Over and out honest !

 

[Simondjuk]

Is there any evidence that Bavs suffer more grounding damage than other makes? I haven't seen it.

1. Have you looked for it?

2. Possibly not documented in an easy to find way since grounding incidents to commercially operating yachts, of which the majority are Bavs, should be reported to the authorities but are often not, and even then the reports are not in the public domain.

3. It seems fairly likely if you think about it. Lots of novice sailors, sailing in unfamiliar waters, on boats that cover way above average annual mileage. That's school/charter boats. They have a lot of scope for having incidents and they're mostly Bavs. No?

 

[GrahamM376]

3. It seems fairly likely if you think about it. Lots of novice sailors, sailing in unfamiliar waters, on boats that cover way above average annual mileage per annum. That's school/charter boats. They have a lot of scope for having incidents and they're mostly Bavs. No?

The wobbly keel one I mentioned next to us is a charter boat, evidently ran aground on sand outside the Ria entrance.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I suspect the reason Bavs suffer more grounding damage than other makes...

Is there any evidence that Bavs suffer more grounding damage than other makes? I haven't seen it.

Possibly not documented in an easy to find way since grounding incidents to commercially operating yachts, of which the majority are Bavs, should be reported to the authorities but are often not, and even then the reports are not in the public domain.

Which is why I was surprised to see you quoting it as fact.

The Match issue was pretty well documented, but the case against the conventional cruising Bav designs seems to be based on sweet FA.

 

[haydude]

Remember that Charter Yacht ?? a Bav, that sailed back from Scilly a year or so ago, having parked its keel twixt some rocks out there, charterers kept stumm about the posn., went out on a charter to Helston ( as IMHRC?) the following week and only on the way back developed some tell tale signs that all was not well down below:excitement:.
So Bav's may shed keels but if the sails aren't put up........

I remember it, and you are not because it was a Janneau

 

[Simondjuk]

The wobbly keel one I mentioned next to us is a charter boat, evidently ran aground on sand outside the Ria entrance.

A place in which I don't expect you've been aground since you're not a novice or infrequent sailor, which tends to confirm my suspicions about charter boats increased likelihood of suffering such incidents.

Also, thanks for answering my earlier question on coding. I agree with Tranona's response entirely, so thanks also to him for saving me the typing.

 

[haydude]

Wanna race my Bavaria 42 Cruiser with in-mast furling main, single handed, against your 42ft racer with as many crew you want?

Any time!

The only rule is: no Spinnaker since I am single handed. Keel, optional

 

[Simondjuk]

Which is why I was surprised to see you quoting it as fact.

The Match 35 issue was pretty well documented, but the case against the conventional cruising Bav designs seems to be based on sweet FA.

Sorry, that was my poor grammar and failing to read back on an annoying to scroll phone screen. What I intended to say was that, 'The reason I suspect more Bavs...'.

 

[Tranona]

There is perhaps an element of truth in that charter boats are more likely to get keel damage - in just the same way that hard raced deep keel boats are in the Solent. Lots of examples of keel problems on boats such as Sigmas - not because they are necessarily worse built than others, just potential contact with the bottom at the edge of channels.

During my time running my boat as a charter boat in Greece where there are lots of rocks and novice skippers, keel problems were rare and no particular pattern according to make of boat. More potential damage with deep spade rudders because of the stern to mooring in shallow waters and where there is often rock ballast at the edge. My boat has the long shallow keel which further reduces the chance of damage at the expense of some sailing ability. Result no damage in 12 years.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Sorry, that was my poor grammar and failing to read back on an annoying to scroll phone screen. What I intended to say was that, 'The reason I suspect more Bavs...'.

Understood, I'm glad it's not just me that does that.

 

[mrming]

Which is why I was surprised to see you quoting it as fact.

The Match 35 issue was pretty well documented, but the case against the conventional cruising Bav designs seems to be based on sweet FA.

It was a Match 42 that the keel fell off. I haven't seen any reports of keels falling off the 35 or any other of the Match series.

 

[jordanbasset]

I would have thought if there were significant problems with Bavaria keels it would be reflected in insurance costs. Certainly when I had mine the insurance was competitive and I did not notice any difference in price between mine and other boat owners I spoke to.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

It was a Match 42 that the keel fell off. I haven't seen any reports of keels falling off the 35 or any other of the Match series.

Thanks for the correction mrming. I should have checked. Post rectified.

 

[costadelrica]

My friends, you should take a tour around the worst coast of scotland yards , particularily there's a good selection of yachts off their keels, keep fine

 

[charles_reed]

They both sail like lorries to begin with.... ( no insult intended...)

In the words of Ettore Bugatti "Les camions de plus vitesse..."