And now the RYA wash their hands of it ...

maby said:
Hmmm, the trouble with this rebating idea for commercial users is that it requires HMRC to create a whole new set of processes - not something that they are going to be happy to do in the current economic climate when all expenditure on new systems is being frowned upon.
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It also means commercial users would have to pay duty and VAT on the fuel and then wait three months to claim it all back. Commercial red is circa 70p a litre, white would be at least double that.

I doubt any commercial users want to pay double for their fuel and wait months for a rebate. Unless some of the yacht owners who use a pint of diesel once a year going to Belgium want to pay the interest on the overdraft.
 
PaulGooch said:
It also means commercial users would have to pay duty and VAT on the fuel and then wait three months to claim it all back. Commercial red is circa 70p a litre, white would be at least double that.

I doubt any commercial users want to pay double for their fuel and wait months for a rebate. Unless some of the yacht owners who use a pint of diesel once a year going to Belgium want to pay the interest on the overdraft.
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Don't they have to if using petrol?
Any reason why diesel should be different?
 
PaulGooch said:
You know many commercial boats that run on petrol ?

How much do you figure the fuel bill would be for a commercial fishing boat over a three month period ? You reckon the skipper can afford to lend that amount to HMRC ?
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If their costs go up, then they can sell for more.
 
I wrote to my MP about it and got what he described as a fulsome letter from Chloe Smith which, as per everryone else's didn't actually solve the problem.

However, one interesting point was she said, "because of a complaint by an individual". Has anyone upset some wretched Belgian or does one of them just have it in for foreigners?
 
PaulGooch said:
How much do you figure the fuel bill would be for a commercial fishing boat over a three month period ? You reckon the skipper can afford to lend that amount to HMRC ?
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Watching Monty Halls' fishing program last week - he was out on a deep sea trawler. Fuel cost for one week's fishing - £10,000.
 
Keen_Ed said:
Watching Monty Halls' fishing program last week - he was out on a deep sea trawler. Fuel cost for one week's fishing - £10,000.
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And on return to the dock there was a tanker sat on the dockside ... so I assume they can fill up with whatever the tanker driver can provide ...

It is more likely to affect the smaller vessels who fill up at the same facilities as leisure users (or t'other way round!)
 
I had a quick look around my marina last week. Guessing a bit (boats don't carry stickers saying "Commercial"!), I reckon that of the 40 or so small craft in the harbour (not counting the tugs!), at least 25-30% were commercial operations - diving, charter, fishing trips, scenic cruises and what have you. Most of these were substantial motor boats, whose fuel usage per trip is probably more than mine in a season. The point is that I reckon that my marina (on the Clyde, so not somewhere this is a live issue) sells FAR more fuel to small commercial operations than it does to the likes of me. I buy maybe £50 or so worth a year; they probably buy £100s a week. And they all legitimately use red diesel at full discount. The marina appears to only have a single tank, so they aren't going to stock multiple fuel types. I know what I'd sell if I were them!

Oh, the marina also has strict regulations about filling from cans; it's a heritage site.
 
Keen_Ed said:
Watching Monty Halls' fishing program last week - he was out on a deep sea trawler. Fuel cost for one week's fishing - £10,000.
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Yup, saw that too. So if they had to run on white, they'd be owed at least £100,000 in duty and VAT by the end of the quarter. More than that by the time they actually get the cheque. By the time the cheque has even cleared they'd be in for another £10k. That wasn't an especially big boat either.

It's inconceivable that Newlyn would switch to white, they'd stick with red and any leisure boats in the area would have to carry their fuel in drums (if the harbour would allow that).
 
But - are there fuelling facilities elsewhere nearby that may well decide/be able to cater for leisure users?

We are normally ~40 minutes from a marine fuel station - but like you, our usage is pretty small - so we just fill up when it gets below 1/2 and we're passing somewhere "cheap"!

In fact - if there were no fuel filling facilities in our harbour it would have minimal impact on us - but then there are plenty of facilities all within a few hours sail of here ...
 
AntarcticPilot said:
I had a quick look around my marina last week. Guessing a bit (boats don't carry stickers saying "Commercial"!), I reckon that of the 40 or so small craft in the harbour (not counting the tugs!), at least 25-30% were commercial operations - diving, charter, fishing trips, scenic cruises and what have you. Most of these were substantial motor boats, whose fuel usage per trip is probably more than mine in a season. The point is that I reckon that my marina (on the Clyde, so not somewhere this is a live issue) sells FAR more fuel to small commercial operations than it does to the likes of me. I buy maybe £50 or so worth a year; they probably buy £100s a week. And they all legitimately use red diesel at full discount. The marina appears to only have a single tank, so they aren't going to stock multiple fuel types. I know what I'd sell if I were them!

Oh, the marina also has strict regulations about filling from cans; it's a heritage site.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what the proponents of the "switch to white" fail to appreciate. In areas such as this, the suppliers would almost certainly stick with red, leaving the leisure users with more problems than they have now.

The handful of Suffolk yachts that visit Belgium fail to consider the big picture. All they see is their own needs and desires. If the govt said leisure boats could no longer use red, their would be large areas of the UK where it would be difficult, if not impossible to use a leisure boat.
 
PaulGooch said:
Yup, saw that too. So if they had to run on white, they'd be owed at least £100,000 in duty and VAT by the end of the quarter. More than that by the time they actually get the cheque. By the time the cheque has even cleared they'd be in for another £10k. That wasn't an especially big boat either.

It's inconceivable that Newlyn would switch to white, they'd stick with red and any leisure boats in the area would have to carry their fuel in drums (if the harbour would allow that).
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But it was being filled by a tanker ... you know - them ones with WHEELS ...
Isn't this what they do on the (in)continent too ... ?

Anyway - with periodic rebates it would be a continuous "loan" - as it would have an affect on cashflow for the first period, thereafter it would be more or less neutral (although you'd effectively be continuously loaning HMRC the rebate amount)
Certainly not ideal - and would have a huge impact on the fishing boats that it affected - but less if they worked on a credit account (I doubt they all pay by cash/card)
 
fireball said:
But it was being filled by a tanker ... you know - them ones with WHEELS ...
Isn't this what they do on the (in)continent too ... ?

Anyway - with periodic rebates it would be a continuous "loan" - as it would have an affect on cashflow for the first period, thereafter it would be more or less neutral (although you'd effectively be continuously loaning HMRC the rebate amount)
Certainly not ideal - and would have a huge impact on the fishing boats that it affected - but less if they worked on a credit account (I doubt they all pay by cash/card)
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I'm sure the entire UK fishing industry and all other commercial boats would be delighted to be permanently over drawn to allow a handful of UK leisure boats to visit Belgium.

I'm equally sure the HMRC sill come up with new accounting methods and systems to allow these schemes to take place.

No doubt the Govt will be happy to pay for all of this.

I don't disagree that the current situation is less than ideal, but forcing commercial users to buy white and pay duty and VAT is not the answer. It's also something that will never happen, in a million years.

The really simple answer is for Belgium to STFU. Easy for them to make a nuisance of themselves. They only have 40 miles of coastline. Someone remind me how big their fishing fleet is ?
 
PaulGooch said:
This is exactly what the proponents of the "switch to white" fail to appreciate. In areas such as this, the suppliers would almost certainly stick with red, leaving the leisure users with more problems than they have now.

The handful of Suffolk yachts that visit Belgium fail to consider the big picture. All they see is their own needs and desires. If the govt said leisure boats could no longer use red, their would be large areas of the UK where it would be difficult, if not impossible to use a leisure boat.
Click to expand...

I don't think it is restricted to Suffolk, and it is perfectly valid for those of us that want the freedom to go abroad to campaign for the solution that facilitates that. Others will campaign for their preferred solution and someone will win. Given the high concentration of yachts in the south east - many of whom have ambitions, at least, to cross the channel - I don't think it is so one-sided. The only outcome that does not require at least some of us to lug cans around is to convince the commission to drop its case without restrictions on where british boats with red in their tanks can go. I'm afraid that I would prefer to be in the group that does not have to resort to jerry cans.
 
maby said:
I don't think it is restricted to Suffolk, and it is perfectly valid for those of us that want the freedom to go abroad to campaign for the solution that facilitates that. Others will campaign for their preferred solution and someone will win. Given the high concentration of yachts in the south east - many of whom have ambitions, at least, to cross the channel - I don't think it is so one-sided. The only outcome that does not require at least some of us to lug cans around is to convince the commission to drop its case without restrictions on where british boats with red in their tanks can go. I'm afraid that I would prefer to be in the group that does not have to resort to jerry cans.
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The campaigning has been done, the solution has been announced. Google should turn up some jerry cans for you :D
 
PaulGooch said:
The campaigning has been done, the solution has been announced. Google should turn up some jerry cans for you :D
Click to expand...

Oh, I think it has a long time left to run... Apart from anything else, it cannot be too long before the road fuel price lobby finds out about 60/40 and all hell will break lose!
 
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