Anchors , Chain and Warp

[jakeroyd]

I know there is lot on here but can not quite find what I am asking so please bear with me with another anchor thread.

I have anchored in the Dandy Hole twice overnight and have dragged both times , the first time a couple of boat lengths , but last night about 150m !!
By the grace of God or Serendipity we never hit another boat but now obviously I must look at my equipment.

Boat , Hunter Ranger 245 , maybe 2200kgs
Anchor , (down at the moment so working from memory) a CQR pattern , maybe 10kgs , might be 15.
6m of chain with 15m of warp.

We were in a range of 4-6m with all of the warp out.

I realise this is a bit light on scope.

I would like some advice please from the Forum on what to try first:-
Change to all chain and plenty of it(limitations of how much my locker will hold)?
Add more warp.?
Change the anchor (ht of the locker will be an issue with some anchors)?
Change anchor and go all chain.?

It's mud here and I have an idea CQR's are not great in mud.


In each case I ended up in the up tide direction with the flood and in each case I anchored on the ebb so I have an idea it's the change of tide direction that is doing the damage. It held fine in all of the vicious Westerly gusts we had last evening.

TIA

 

[homer]

I would change the anchor first. I know some people still swear by them but in all the tests I have read, and in my own experience, CQRs simply do not work well. I swapped to a more modern plough type (actually a Kobra) and anchoring problems have all but gone away.

 

[sailorman]

I know there is lot on here but can not quite find what I am asking so please bear with me with another anchor thread.

I have anchored in the Dandy Hole twice overnight and have dragged both times , the first time a couple of boat lengths , but last night about 150m !!
By the grace of God or Serendipity we never hit another boat but now obviously I must look at my equipment.

Boat , Hunter Ranger 245 , maybe 2200kgs
Anchor , (down at the moment so working from memory) a CQR pattern , maybe 10kgs , might be 15.
6m of chain with 15m of warp.

We were in a range of 4-6m with all of the warp out.

I realise this is a bit light on scope.

I would like some advice please from the Forum on what to try first:-
Change to all chain and plenty of it(limitations of how much my locker will hold)?
Add more warp.?
Change the anchor (ht of the locker will be an issue with some anchors)?
Change anchor and go all chain.?

It's mud here and I have an idea CQR's are not great in mud.


In each case I ended up in the up tide direction with the flood and in each case I anchored on the ebb so I have an idea it's the change of tide direction that is doing the damage. It held fine in all of the vicious Westerly gusts we had last evening.

TIA

i use a gen 10kg bruce + 20m of 8m/m chain + 30m 18m/m warp on the east coast on a 37 ft boat it doesnt drag.+i an now cruising the CI & have a 15kg gen bruce 60m of 8m/m chain + 50m 18m/m warp all yet to be used due to the weather

 

[vyv_cox]

For that size of boat I would think 10 kg is ample, but check what the manufacturer recommends. Your scope is definitely not sufficient, the short length of chain will help a little but most recommendations for rope are 5:1 on the maximum depth, deck to seabed. Rather more chain would help, all chain is my preference if the locker will take it. A Kobra or Delta would be a big improvement, or a new generation anchor if the budget will stretch that far.

 

[sarabande]

what size chain please ? 6mm is too light unless you use a lot, and 8mm is much better. Weight on the ground 'twixt anchor and boat is the key, so that the digging in of the design is optimised.

CQR "pattern". Hmm. Mud (Lynher style) is not good holding ground.


I'd change the anchor for a modern generation one, and as much chain as you can stow comfortably. 20m of 8mm should be OK. Then a warp. Total length at least 5 times the expected depth as Vyv C recommends.

 

[oldbilbo]

obviously I must look at my equipment.

Boat , Hunter Ranger 245 , maybe 2200kgs. Anchor, a CQR pattern , maybe 10kgs , might be 15. 6m of chain with 15m of warp. We were in a range of 4-6m with all of the warp out. I realise this is a bit light on scope.

I would like some advice please from the Forum on what to try first:-

It's mud here and I have an idea CQR's are not great in mud.

I have an idea it's the change of tide direction that is doing the damage. It held fine in all of the vicious Westerly gusts we had last evening.

On the majority of occasions I've had an anchor drag, in my or another's boat, it's been due to inadequate scope. It seems clear that the scope you're using is proving inadequate. Increasing the scope you have and use is the easiest, cheapest and first improvement to tackle, IMHO.

I recommend you double the length of chain, and double the length of warp. There are various Rules of Thumb about how much scope to lie to. I believe that what you had available - 4x max depth - is far too little on a chain/warp 'rode' and that 6x depth is closer to what's needed - especially when you know that the tidestream will reverse and likely upset the anchor while you're asleep.

Dandy Hole is a beautiful but well-used anchorage. Like others e.g. Phuildorain near Oban, it is frequently 'ploughed' in summer so the consistency of the bottom is probably now too fine and loose for security.

The practices commonly used while anchoring have become rather 'dumbed-down' over the past decade or so. It was long the 'ordinary practice of seamen' to maintain an awake anchor watch if lying to one anchor in a reversing tide stream, for the anchor failing to reset on the turn of tide was - and remains - commonplace.

If you want to sleep undisturbed through a turn of tide - which is not best practice - then consider laying a second anchor out in the direction of the reversed tidestream, to which you will lie after the turn of tide. The way to do that is shown in most 'how to' books on ordinary smallcraft seamanship.

The CQR has been an effective anchor design for many decades, and is still used effectively all over the world,, and in Dandy Hole. Newer designs are/can be even more effective, but the CQR you already have should still do the job perfectly well for you. As you indicate, it has recently served you well.

I'd encourage you to enhance your scope and your techniques - and also to set your alarm for the change of tide, so you can keep watch when needed. That is also part of the responsibility to your vessel, your guests and yourself.

 

[doug748]

That river mud is usually good and holding, tho I have only used Dandy Hole once myself.

As the others have said, consider more stuff. I would go for 30m of new chain and attach the rope to that.

If you feel the anchor could be improved upon, a seconhand Bruce could be got for well under £50 or, perhaps, a new Delta for just over £100.

 

[jakeroyd]

chain

saraband,
Can't check the chain , it's down at the moment , will advise when it comes up

 

[vyv_cox]

or, perhaps, a new Delta for just over £100.

I found a secondhand 10 kg Delta on Ebay, being sold by a forumite and CA member for £50. We were both attending a CA forum, so I got free delivery on top!

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

It would be easy to say change your anchor and change your chain. Of course that would solve the problem.

In reality though, I guess you would like to start with the least hassle and expenditure and keep trying solutions till you fix the problem.

The first thing you should try is to be clear about how much scope you really do have. If you do the math you will find some interesting things.

Your boat draws about 1.0m. Lety's assume the bow roller is 1.0m above the water, and your windlass is about 0.15m from the roller and your depth below keel is 6.0m as you said.

In these circumstances, from your windlass, you would need 40m of warp and cable to get a 5:1 scope which is the minimum I would have thought suitable for a quiet sleep on mixed rode.

So, the first thing you should try is another 20m of warp.
If that doesn't work get more chain. That will work.

Yes, there are better anchors than a CQR, but none of them work properly without the right rode.

 

[catalac08]

This is not a CQR knocking post (as anchoring is the sum of all the parts ie chain, warp, design,weight and beding in techniques apart from all the bottom variables) but I had a CQR for several years and often when anchoring and then drying out I would walk over or look through binos and have a look how it had set. More often than not the anchor would be lying on its side and not dug in properly at all and the boat was just lying to the chain. As I was less experienced then and did not make such a concious efforts to "dig in " the anchor as I do now some of this was probably down to me but this does lead me to believe that it is easier to get it wrong with a CQR than a Delta which I now use and which always seems to dig well in, even when it is just a lunch stop and I just let the current bed it in.

 

[Bobc]

IMHO it's not the anchor, it's the chain.

Get 20m of 8mm chain and then use at least 4:1 scope.

 

[jakeroyd]

chain

I'm coming round to the first thing to try is 20m of 8mm chain.
This looks to be the right size for a 24.5' boat.
If this does not work then try a new anchor.

Marine Bizzare tomorrow I think
Must also buy quality chain (uncalibrated) and not Chinese carp.

 

[YachtAllegro]

I'm coming round to the first thing to try is 20m of 8mm chain.
This looks to be the right size for a 24.5' boat.
If this does not work then try a new anchor.

Marine Bizzare tomorrow I think
Must also buy quality chain (uncalibrated) and not Chinese carp.

That sounds entirely sensible. The scope you describe is definitely too short, ending up at about 3:1 at high water if I've understood you correctly. That might be ok for a lunch stop on all chain but is nowhere near enough for an overnight stop on mixed chain and warp, when you want at least 5-6:1.

We (in a 25' boat) carry 20m chain + 60m warp. We like to anchor quite close in, so are often essentially using an all-chain rode. Even after a wind or tide shift its frequently obvious on raising the anchor that the bit of chain closest to the anchor is still pointing in the direction it was when we laid it - ie that that much chain on the bottom has really been holding us in itself, without transferring much load to the anchor at all.

The extra warp we carry is really just an insurance policy for strong winds or deep anchorages - but even with all of that out that I wouldn't feel able to anchor anywhere deeper than about 10m at LAT (4-5m tidal range here on the west coast of Scotland).

Cheers
Patrick

[Edit - And I'd second the suggestion above to use your kedge downstream when anchoring in a significant tidal flow - decreases worries about resetting, and also substantially reduces your swinging room, so no need to worry about the change of tide setting you over a shallower patch]

 

[CaptainBob]

We've anchored a lot at Dandy Hole with sometimes less than 3:1 chain out to limit swinging room (there's a nice little, tight, hole up near the path to the village (and pub)) and we've never dragged. We were on a Rocna.

Have anchored a lot also on a CQR.

We used a length of 8mm chain then warp and often had all chain and some warp out and were still ~3:1 and still never dragged on the Rocna even in quite extreme conditions.

The CQR _often_ dragged even with 6:1+

Once we were in a Force 7/8 in 4m and I put out the Rocna and the CQR in a V in nice thick gloopy mud. CQR dragged in the night and I pulled it in hand over hand, over 30m of the mud, and just put it away in the locker leaving only the Rocna to hold us. It never budged an inch.

Here's a vid, Rutland 913 in thermal shutdown mode:

http://youtu.be/hHwnYXFLG-U

 

[vyv_cox]

Must also buy quality chain (uncalibrated) and not Chinese carp.

You will be quite fortunate to find any. There are few suppliers of European-made chain, Jimmy Green being one, Island Chain another. The vast majority of chandlery chain is supplied either by Bainbridge or Navimo. Both source it in China.

I have destructively tested three sample chains, all Chinese. Each exceeded the specified UTS by a considerable margin.

 

[jakeroyd]

Thanks and update

Well , an eventfully day.
After absorbing all the advice we waited until there was enough water to head back to Mayflower. I was keeping a tight eye on the anchor and began wondering if it was the strong flow in the middle hours of the flood that was the culprit. I satisfied myself that all looked ok , tight anchor warp and flood flowing past.
Had lunch , maybe 15 mins , then suddenly saw a boat far too close , we had dragged again !
I started the motor and avoided a bump , reversing out of the way.
I ended up pinned against the effects of wind against tide with the anchor , it being a capricious beastie , very well dug in. Could not shift it and began experimenting with rudder angle etc. to move the boat away from the rode.
This failed.
The guy from the boat we had just avoided motored over in his dinghy we freed the line , put a fender on it and released it under the boat , engine stopped.
This did the job and we floated free.
Returned to Mayflower now to lick our wounds.

A massive thank you to Tala-Hinnie , registered in Littlehampton , you are an officer and a Gentleman , Sir.

Will get the chain tomorrow.

 

[Poignard]

You will be quite fortunate to find any. There are few suppliers of European-made chain, Jimmy Green being one, Island Chain another. The vast majority of chandlery chain is supplied either by Bainbridge or Navimo. Both source it in China.

I have destructively tested three sample chains, all Chinese. Each exceeded the specified UTS by a considerable margin.

Griff Chains Ltd, Dudley, West Midlands still manufacture chain. Also they will fit enlarged end links, so enabling a decent sized anchor shackle to be used.

http://www.griffchains.co.uk/chain.html

 

[Retired in Crete]

I was taught many years ago to use the these ratios of anchor chain to depth of water:
3:1 for a quick stop/calm water
5:1 for a longer stop/medium water
7:1 For long stop/rough water

Easy to remember and seems to work!

John

 

[blackbeard]

I have a Hunter 245. This boat has a rather small anchor/chain locker which rather restricts your choice of anchor, assuming you want to keep it in the locker. Most anchors of 10 kg or more won't fit, although you could store it on the foredeck or on the locker lid maybe. Not sure about keeping it on the roller, check dimensions first as it might be nibbling at your gel coat.

The anchor sometimes supplied was a Harbourfast Hi-Blade (I think) which I understand was a CQR copy, 7.5 kg I understand with just a few metres of 6mm chain. No further comment.

The point about a genuine (as opposed to copy) Bruce has already been made. I agree with this, originally I had a bad copy of a Bruce which dragged several times. The real Bruce is of rather similar geometry but not identical and the difference seems to be vital! In fact I would be reluctant to use any sort of copy of any anchor when the real thing is available.

I use a 10 kg Britany with 25 m of 8 mm chain, plus warp. All fits in the locker, but only just (in fact if you go that way, I would borrow the anchor first to make sure it does fit, it's that tight). This always bites first time and has never dragged, although I recognise that the Britany doesn't have the best reputation. The Britany is of somewhat Danforth shape and Danforths are good in mud but are said to not re-set always if wind or tide change, but I have had no problem. 25 m of 8mm chain may have something to do with it. (Usually, since the boat is shallow draft and can take ground, and I tend to anchor in W Solent/Poole where the tidal range is small, I don't have all 25 m out, but in the situation you describe I would use it all! only problem is one hundredweight of anyoldiron in the bows of a 25' boat, but if it helps you sleep ...).

I sometimes think I might use a different anchor, Delta for instance, but the biggest Delta that would fit would be 6 kg and that's a bit light although, as I've said, a 10 kg Delta (or even bigger), or 10 kg expensivenewgeneration, could fit in chocks on the locker lid. Haven't tried this yet.

Hauling up anchor and chain by hand is OK, and I'm no Charles Atlas, although the Britany is an unwieldy lump which likes mud so much it always brings some up with it to spread all over boat and me ...