Anchoring rights

[Jeva]

This is an old thorn, but I have yet to see it published.
When a boat anchors, does that boat establish rights over the water that it will swing in?
So if I choose to anchor with 30M of chain and the chappie next to me is too close when the wind swings around, who's in the right? Me, because I got there first and established rights or chappie who says I'm using too much chain?
Not yet come to fisticuffs but I'd like to hear other peoples opinions. Also, is there a legal standing for this?
Just asking before I row across and belt the silly b*****.

 

[BobnLesley]

...When a boat anchors, does that boat establish rights over the water that it will swing in?...if I choose to anchor with 30M of chain and the chappie next to me is too close when the wind swings around, who's in the right? Me, because I got there first and established rights or chappie who says I'm using too much chain? ...

"Rights' is perhaps, indeed probably far too strong a word. At best, being there first should give you 'precedence', though even that is no more than accepted practice/courtesy and certainly not a legal right. With that as a basis, the being 'too close' is most often a matter of opinion rather than fact and indeed dependent on location, weather conditions and tidal current/range and probably other factors too; in my experience, the nationality of the anchorers is also a factor: I hold that within any given/equivalent anchorage area you can accomodate twice as many Europeam yachts as North American ones, indeed if everyone was French, you'd squeeze at least 4x as many in!

As to the specific question in your post, it depends on the location and conditions that you're in, do they suggest that a scope of 30m is sensible for safe anchoring there tonight? Then yes, feel free to politely raise the matter with the encroaching boat's skipper, if however you're sitting in 3-4m with good holding and a settled/light-winds forecast, then stop being a silly b***** and pull some of that unnecessary chain back in again.
If he's genuinely 'too close for the conditions' just call out to th other skipper and discuss the percieved problem across the gap between the boats, hopefully reaching an amicable resolution; if you need to 'shout' or indeed 'row across' to undertake this conversation, then the chances are that he's well clear of you and you're your'e the silly b***** or perhaps North American?

 

[macd]

As well as BobnLesley's sensible points, there's an insurance issue.

In the scenario Jeva describes he has manifestly identified a danger (i.e. that the other boat is too close and may collide). If he stands on his 'rights' he risks losing his cover should that collision occur. Any communications with the other vessel which do not lead to action only add to the case that a risk was identified yet tolerated.

That may seem unfair, even perverse, but it's no more so than the ColRegs obligations on both vessels on a collision course.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The last four times we anchored we been in just that position, twice I rowed over and spoke to the skippers the owner skipper agreed and moved the charter skipper said it be ok and didn't ,
There was no wind forecasters which sometime makes it worst as boat tend to go different ways , I decided as he wasn't going to move I fix my pole out with a fender , knowing very well the chance if we did hit , it be anywhere but the pole .
. The other two times I just couldn't bother , just put all my fenders out and the dinghy has again the wasn't going to be much wind .
If there was a blow forecaster , if the other boat wouldn't move then I would , being in the position before in the middle of the night with someone prop or rudder wiped on my chain in a blow is no fun .
As far as insurance goes , there a good chance if real damage was done , them saying , if you knew there was a chance of collision and didn't move it partly your faultand may not pay out .

 

[truscott]

This is quite an interesting exercise.

I would welcome comments on our own experiences from yesterday.

We were in Trizonia. Anchored in 6 meters parallel to the inner mole with the old Lizzies YC on our port bow (hopefully you are now oriented). We deployed 30 Meters. We prefer larger scopes than the traditional 3:1 that many armchair admirals on here espouse) . The unforecast wind was gusting 30 but mostly in the low 20's. We had no internet for an update and were a little uneasy having witnessed most of the other boats in the bay drag through the day. The old forecast was for the wind to switch 180°. In comes a singlehander on a 49 footer who decides to drop in front of me. 30 meters from my bow. I explain I have 30 out and he proceeds to continue. After repeated protestations he moves on and anchors quite successfully elsewhere in the bay.

Based on the OP's original post, am I to be held at fault for a 5:1 scope, or given that if I shortened scope to the Arm Chair Admirals preferred 3:1, I would have been even closer to my friend, am I quite right in getting up on the bow and advising him that he was too close and that there was no room?

I used my Golf Laser thingy to measure the distance ahead of me and there was 80 Mtrs from my bow and the shore, so it is possible that he could have fit (except that it is shallow for a good 10-20 meters from the rocks there.

After he moved and the wind increased and my neighbour dragged I deployed 20 Meters more then upped and moved in closer, redeployed 50 and settled in. We didn't drag. Nor did my friend in the 49. Thankfully the wind remained in the same quadrant all night.

Most of the boats coming in chose to go in and tie up alongside.

Your thoughts.

Cheers, PT.

 

[RichardS]

In my experience anything from 3:1 up to 5:1 is perfectly reasonable as an anchoring scope whatever the conditions so if the first boat arrives and lays anything up to 5:1 then no-one has any right to complain. If the second boat doesn't like it, then it's hard luck, the first boat has first dibs and the second boat has to put up with it or move elsewhere.

The situation is slightly different if the first boat has laid out more than 5:1 in that the second boat would be within their rights to complain and ask the first boat nicely if they would be prepared to haul in some rode. However, if the first boat refuses then we are back to the above ... it's hard luck, the first boat has first dibs and the second boat has to put up with it or move elsewhere.

There is no "law" associated with any of this and if there is a "coming together" and damage is caused then second boat is going to have a lot of explaining to do!

Richard

 

[sailaboutvic]

We always go for 5:1 no matter what if people want to lay 3:1 that's up to them , but I want to make sure we have enough scope out in case the unexpected happens , and it's not the first time it happened .
It's more likely people to lay 3:1 and at times a lot less , we all seen it and when that happens I know There a good chance they got no idea what their are doing . And it's worrying , if even more worrying when there no sign of then digging the anchor .
There another problem here too , some just can't judge distains , I not sure how many time someone told me I too close , and one thing I never do is anchor close , a few time I ask people if they wouldn't mind getting into there dinghy and take a look and if they still thing I too close I move , there been suprising looks on there faces .
Close is when the dinghy of the boat in front is rubbing on your chain , like it was the other day .

As I said in the other posting , I not too sure what an insurance company would say , if there was damage , when you report that you told the other boat he was too close but he didn't move and as you was there first you wasn't going to move . It be interesting to find out

 

[macd]

As I said in the other posting , I not too sure what an insurance company would say , if there was damage , when you report that you told the other boat he was too close but he didn't move and as you was there first you wasn't going to move . It be interesting to find out

There's no ambiguity about that, Vic. Your policy will have words about due prudence, knowingly putting into danger etc, on the part of the skipper.

 

[RupertW]

Close is when the dinghy of the boat in front is rubbing on your chain , like it was the other day .

That's my definition too - I find far too many people worry about being too close just because you are over their anchor or chain as the boats roam around or when you couldn't even throw a rope to each other. It's great being far away from boats in uncrowded anchorages but if you a in a popular spot in season you have to expect that small gap between you and another boat to be filled by yet another one.

I put fenders out and mostly relax now as long as they are not putting their anchor on top of mine - it took a long time to reach that level.

I put between 3 and 5 out depending on conditions and crowdedness - if I'm well dug in after full reverse with 3 out and wind due to die away over night then I'm fine with that but will let some out before going to bed if it looks like the boat now ahead of me has more scope out and I have room behind me.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Who said that about the French! We arrived in a shallow (3M) but large bay in the Micro Cyclades with a 10 kn nw blowing. I generally ask the boat nearest where I am proposing to anchor how much chain they have got out. (For 3 meters I would put out ideally 4 x 4 = 16 meters.) The reply came back "70 metre" which I queried assuming he had said 17 meters. We decided to accept that he had 70 meters out and anchored down wind of him. During the evening as the wind dropped and boats meandered around our distance was not changing so i assumed that he was actually on 17M. In the morning pulling up his chain he went half way round the bay - it was 70 meters! Had there been the forecast wind change in the night, he would probably have swung through and round the chains of other boats that had been to windward of him.

He was there before me - so its his choice - I have to anchor accordingly.

I do agree that when in a crowded anchorage, I try to anchor the correct distance from a boat - not just exactly half way between the 2 nearest, as that means the next arrivals will bisect the distance yet again and then you will have 2 close neighbours. Sometimes skippers say you are therefore too close when you aren't as they expect you to anchor half way - but that in a crowded anchorage is selfish and does not anticipate the space for new arrivals.

 

[truscott]

There is quite a lot of evidence out there that shows that Catenary has limited effect in strong winds, whereas keeping the pull on the anchor as horizontal to the sea bed as possible is much more effective. So in shallow waters, and to me 3 meters is shallow, a larger scope is much more favourable. We are in Petalas and last night got very gusty. Most boats had an effective 10:1 (up to 30 Meters) out, but then there is simply loads and loads of room here.

I agree that in a limited space anchorage, you may not be able to get away with that amount out, but having said that in any decent blow, I don't want to be sitting on or behind my neighbour anyway, so would move to create space.

The opposite of all this was my neighbour in Archangelos a few years back who informed me I was dragging in the middle of the night (he was anchored upwind of me) and then came too close again when I moved to the other side of the bay. In the morning we watched as he recovered what looked to be over 150 meters of lovely stainless chain. He had swept the whole bay clean all night with everyone having to move and re-anchor outside of the huge semicircle he created. He was there first, so I moved without question but I did wonder how I'd managed to drag up wind.

I like the argument above of "precedence" rather than "right". At the end of the day we should anchor prudently and be prepared to adapt as the conditions change. Sometimes that means upping stakes and moving, sometimes simply letting out more chain and sometimes it means getting up on the bow and telling the silly bugger who is about to drop his anchor directly on top of yours, to bugger off!

PT

 

[Chris_Robb]

There is quite a lot of evidence out there that shows that Catenary has limited effect in strong winds, whereas keeping the pull on the anchor as horizontal to the sea bed as possible is much more effective. So in shallow waters, and to me 3 meters is shallow, a larger scope is much more favourable. We are in Petalas and last night got very gusty. Most boats had an effective 10:1 (up to 30 Meters) out, but then there is simply loads and loads of room here.

I agree that in a limited space anchorage, you may not be able to get away with that amount out, but having said that in any decent blow, I don't want to be sitting on or behind my neighbour anyway, so would move to create space.

The opposite of all this was my neighbour in Archangelos a few years back who informed me I was dragging in the middle of the night (he was anchored upwind of me) and then came too close again when I moved to the other side of the bay. In the morning we watched as he recovered what looked to be over 150 meters of lovely stainless chain. He had swept the whole bay clean all night with everyone having to move and re-anchor outside of the huge semicircle he created. He was there first, so I moved without question but I did wonder how I'd managed to drag up wind.

I like the argument above of "precedence" rather than "right". At the end of the day we should anchor prudently and be prepared to adapt as the conditions change. Sometimes that means upping stakes and moving, sometimes simply letting out more chain and sometimes it means getting up on the bow and telling the silly bugger who is about to drop his anchor directly on top of yours, to bugger off!

PT

PT - agree with what you say. But it is especially important to ensure that you stop yachts doing stupid things Before they do it, especially before night fall with a not so good forecast. Some times there is no alternative to the shouted "Stop", but by far the best way is to offer to help, and if its refused help them anyway if they are standing into a dangerous situation. Ask questions - like how much chain do you have - dont say you dont have enough - you will elicit the same information in the end. It is important to avoid heat - and loss of face which the French seem to suffer from by bucket loads in my humble experience! I have had few problems even from the Italians. I have suffered more damage and a refusal to talk from the French - of course with exceptions.....

My worst fear is the yacht that leaves to reset an anchor on a stern too quay, who goes forward at high speed pulling in his/her chain and then who wanders around with the anchor an unknown depth into the water effectively trawling for those chains that are set up good and tight. Especially at night..... One of those French boats in the Aegean - blue and skippered by a woman - is well worth being wary about as we had 3 attacks in 5 nights from her - despite being 6 boats away! always someone elses fault:disgust:

 

[Jeva]

Very interesting and sound comments from the forum - only what I would expect though.:encouragement:
The problem tends to exacerbate when boats of different types anchor close together. Without knocking any particular type, some light displacement boats move around a lot more and at a higher rate than heavier boats.
We are a heavy displacement (30+ tons) and so we tend to anchor more to the chain than to the anchor (5:1 would be the norm), and because of this we try to anchor in deeper water to limit the effects. If it stays reasonably quiet then most boats will not swing around the anchor, only first percentage of their chain (not talking about tidal waters here).
When a forecast shows that the wind direction will change and increase in the night, it helps to think ahead. Unfortunately not everybody thinks this way and anchor to the current conditions and not the forecast. (I accept that not everybody always has an up to date forecast).
If you consider the effect of our 30T touching a 6 ton 30 footer... well, all we want is an undisturbed nights sleep.
Sadly, the biggest culprits are the charter boats who mostly, haven't the experience, and seem to assume that once anchored it will be the same as putting your car in the car park.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Very interesting and sound comments from the forum - only what I would expect though.:encouragement:
The problem tends to exacerbate when boats of different types anchor close together. Without knocking any particular type, some light displacement boats move around a lot more and at a higher rate than heavier boats.
We are a heavy displacement (30+ tons) and so we tend to anchor more to the chain than to the anchor (5:1 would be the norm), and because of this we try to anchor in deeper water to limit the effects. If it stays reasonably quiet then most boats will not swing around the anchor, only first percentage of their chain (not talking about tidal waters here).
When a forecast shows that the wind direction will change and increase in the night, it helps to think ahead. Unfortunately not everybody thinks this way and anchor to the current conditions and not the forecast. (I accept that not everybody always has an up to date forecast).
If you consider the effect of our 30T touching a 6 ton 30 footer... well, all we want is an undisturbed nights sleep.
Sadly, the biggest culprits are the charter boats who mostly, haven't the experience, and seem to assume that once anchored it will be the same as putting your car in the car park.

This year we have been anchored along side yachts using a stern steadying sail. It's such an effective solution. Our boat a 12 ton Oceanlord tends to veer around a lot when the wind gets up. I thought because the yachts with the steadying don't veer that we would have a problem if tightly anchored. Actually it means you can ignore from you calculations how much the next door boat will veer towards you.

It's on the shopping list for next year.

 

[BobnLesley]

...the biggest culprits are the charter boats who mostly, don't haven't the experience...

PT...stop yachts doing stupid things before they do it...best way is to offer to help... is important to avoid heat - and loss of face...:

Yet how often do we see/hear some 'experienced, expert, long-term cruiser' standing on the foredeck, hurling abuse (not even always fair/justified) rather than trying to do something constructive?

When we learnt to sail, anchoring was not actually part of the RYA's practical-course sylabus, perhaps that's still the case; is that also true in other nations too? We were fortunate to have an Instructor who disagreed strongly with the RYA position and taught us his basic technique, following which we've had years to practice and develop that to achieve something that suits us and we all know that 'practice makes perfect'. Yet despite nearly fifteen year's and no doubt several thousand opportunities to practice, we still occassionally get it wrong (like having a dragging anchor, anyone who claims that it's never happened to them's just telling porkies) though we do like to think that we can spot our errors early/immediately nowadays and go try again.

If you're genuinely confident that you 'know how to do it' then never shout at a novice from the foredeck, particularly if you've already watched the poor sod get abused half a dozen times already. Get into your dinghy, putter quietly over and keeping Chris_Robb's comments to the forefront of your mind, quietly explain not only that they need to move, but also why and offer advice on where & how the Skipper could best achieve that.
I must've helped/taught/advised dozens of yachts (almost all chartered) over the years, it certainly makes the anchorage you're in quieter and friendlier and when on occassion you see that same charter boat a few days later, come into another anchorage and make a good/sensible/first-try job of anchoring, you get to feel that you've done something more useful than drink beer/rum for a change.

I concede that the avoiding heat/loss-of-face part's probably the hardest, that's why your approach should be quiet/discrete/sympathetic and quite often whilst the Skipper's initial reaction may be hostile (he's already stressed, so it's up to you to stay calm), his wife/family/crew are likely to be much happier to see you (these reactions often being in inverse proportion to each other). I've never anchored a boat for anyone - that's the Skipper's job - I just stand in the cockpit, discuss location/holding/depth/scope weather outlook and my (not necessarily the 'only') technique of dealing with them all. Then once the Skipper's chosen his 'spot' and makes his approach, I'll whisper hints of where/how to drop, dig-in and ultimately finish at, rather than somewhere near that given spot. Without doubt the biggest difficulty that novices seem struggle with is in visualising the distance between where the anchor goes down to where they're going to end up once the scope's been laid. Well, that and too many engine-revs too soon.

I have been told point-blank to f-off on more than one occassion, but if you're sympathetic, patient, friendly and helpful I guarantee you'll more often get a new firend and some cold beer than abuse.

 

[OldBawley]

Quote “ Get into your dinghy, putter quietly over and keeping Chris_Robb's comments to the forefront of your mind, quietly explain not only that they need to move, but also why and offer advice on where & how the Skipper could best achieve that.”

Exactly how I do it.

Could not shout anyway, lost my voice this summer, now sound as an old man whispering.
Using a rigid dinghy, rowing, helps also in doing the advising quiet, making sure not to upset the newbie´s ego.

I have never been told to f*** off, it is all a mater of how to approach and talk to people.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Quote “ Get into your dinghy, putter quietly over and keeping Chris_Robb's comments to the forefront of your mind, quietly explain not only that they need to move, but also why and offer advice on where & how the Skipper could best achieve that.”

Exactly how I do it.

Could not shout anyway, lost my voice this summer, now sound as an old man whispering.
Using a rigid dinghy, rowing, helps also in doing the advising quiet, making sure not to upset the newbie´s ego.

I have never been told to f*** off, it is all a mater of how to approach and talk to people.

One of the strangest incidents I got involved in - in Nisyros south of Kos involved a 50 ft Russian charter boat. There was one adequate space left in the middle of the quay. Holding there is pretty good. No wind

So the Russian boat goes to the western end of the quay and starts lowering his anchor about 20 feet from the bows of the already moored yachts.

He reverses back, not a bad job and gets into the gap, throws the stern warps to us on shore and we fix up. No one has made a squeak at this point about how he had done it - no danger - flat calm.

There English is good, so I start talk to the skipper, and soon get round to the subject of anchoring stern to. We get some paper and pencil and start drawing out what it should looks like. He still could not grasp that his anchor - now across 10 boats would not be of any use at all. Eventually he seems to understand and I agree to go out with him and just hold his hand whilst he does the relay. He executes a perfect berthing and smiles all round.

Next day - the Russian yacht is seen to go out again and relays his anchor using the original method, but this time there is more wind and pandemonium break out as he lifts anchors of some of the boats to the west - trawling with his half raised anchor. We were unaffected and there were so many other skippers shouting instructions that I just decided to watch - reminiscent of Yarmouth on a Saturday evening.

Anger grows and other skippers are refusing to take his sern warps and shouting at him to leave. They leave - but not without trawling the anchors of the ones to the East.

I just dont understand how people are so oblivious to the most obvious of things. It was quite clear that he must have been an egg head and spatially totally unaware of the practical laws of physics....... or and effing idiot....

 

[OldBawley]

We use one of the older type anchors, a CQR. Not always dependable, so in doubt I lay a second anchor ( we have 5 on board ) mostly the Northill.
Lots of yachts anchor nearby, not seeing ( How? Why? Blind ? ) that two rodes depart from our bow-bowsprit.
Another reason to row over and explain our boat is not going to turn in the wind as their yacht.

Our little boat hangs very steady behind one or two anchors. So steady that in a lot of anchorages I have to hoist the lug yawl sail.
The reason is that with low wind, our boat ( huge long keel and very low windage ) lays on the current. ( For instance in the Poros lake )
Furthermore, in wind shifts our boat moves, but way slower and later as modern style balloon yachts
The lug yawl sail helps to behave more “Modern”

One good advice : Never go in the dinghy and explain how and why the newbie should move if it is a yacht with an all male crew on board. No way the alpha male will bend.
Only and smartest way is to heave your anchor and go away yourself.

With an all male Russian crew even more important.

 

[Chris_Robb]

With an all male Russian crew even more important.

:ambivalence: they listened but didn't learn.....

 

[FirstAway]

As a relative newcomer to anchoring in Greece I have followe this thread with interest. I apologise for a bit of a thread drift, but would be interested in the views of the more experienced in the use of anchor buoys. I can see a benefit to be able to see where everybody's anchor lies, but it also becomes another piece of rope for all to get tangled up with? So please, do you use one and why / why not?