Poignard
Well-Known Member
I use a very large shackle which works well but you can buy a special saddle from Davey & Co.
http://www.davey.co.uk/pdf/anchors.pdf
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Anchor Chum / Angel
- Thread starter LadyInBed
- Start date
I use a very large shackle which works well but you can buy a special saddle from Davey & Co.
http://www.davey.co.uk/pdf/anchors.pdf
Coaster
Well-Known Member
Many thanks. That is a big one.
mikeinkwazi
Well-Known Member
Uses, Misuses, of graphs!
Please note the horizontal and vertical scales are not the same. This gives rise to the strange and wrong curve of the chain. NB I have used an angel over 35 years and 40,000 miles and hey they work!
Please note the horizontal and vertical scales are not the same. This gives rise to the strange and wrong curve of the chain. NB I have used an angel over 35 years and 40,000 miles and hey they work!
craigsmith
Well-Known Member
The different scales exaggerate the effect such as it is, not diminish it, deliberately; for the same reason, the kellet modelled in those simulations is far larger (relative to the anchor) than would be reasonable in real life. The idea is to make the argument invunerable to the silly little fallacies prevalent on internet boards that might otherwise convince those biased toward a traditionalist mindset in the first place.
Common sense people, does it really make sense that a 10 kg weight hung from the rode is going to make any real difference when there's 1,000 kgf in that rode?
Kellets do not improve the performance of an adequate anchor. Believing otherwise is misinformed wishful thinking. What you can put your "faith" in is some really rather simple laws of physics and mathematical facts.
Common sense people, does it really make sense that a 10 kg weight hung from the rode is going to make any real difference when there's 1,000 kgf in that rode?
Kellets do not improve the performance of an adequate anchor. Believing otherwise is misinformed wishful thinking. What you can put your "faith" in is some really rather simple laws of physics and mathematical facts.
William_H
Well-Known Member
Anchor chum
Obviously a heavier anchor is going to incorporate a larger area of blade that will have a bigger grip on the sand. Or if dragging have to drag a larger amount of sand. This however assumes that the anchor rode is pulling at the correct angle under all conditions.
Using all chain and a large ratio of depth to rode length then this should be correct under all conditions up boat pulling horizontally and of any lifting of the bow in a swell.However if you are constrained to a shorter rode length by great water depth of limited turning space then the chain may not always approach the anchor at the correct ie horizontal angle. An anchor chum will help in this situation.
If the chum is up high it's weight is going to be partially supported by the boat buoyancy.It will try to keep the chain from the bow to the weight nearer vertical and so improve the angle of the chain to the anchor but as said I think nearer the anchor is going to be more effective. I don't think it matters so much if it is on the bottom almost all the time because it will still lift at times of extreme load and so keep the chain approach to the anchor horizontal.
My experience of anchoring is limited. I only carry a small danforth with a few metres of chain and have often when using it been able to dive down to check it's performance. It really is impressive how the anchor disappears into the sand with only the chain to betray its presence. olewill
Obviously a heavier anchor is going to incorporate a larger area of blade that will have a bigger grip on the sand. Or if dragging have to drag a larger amount of sand. This however assumes that the anchor rode is pulling at the correct angle under all conditions.
Using all chain and a large ratio of depth to rode length then this should be correct under all conditions up boat pulling horizontally and of any lifting of the bow in a swell.However if you are constrained to a shorter rode length by great water depth of limited turning space then the chain may not always approach the anchor at the correct ie horizontal angle. An anchor chum will help in this situation.
If the chum is up high it's weight is going to be partially supported by the boat buoyancy.It will try to keep the chain from the bow to the weight nearer vertical and so improve the angle of the chain to the anchor but as said I think nearer the anchor is going to be more effective. I don't think it matters so much if it is on the bottom almost all the time because it will still lift at times of extreme load and so keep the chain approach to the anchor horizontal.
My experience of anchoring is limited. I only carry a small danforth with a few metres of chain and have often when using it been able to dive down to check it's performance. It really is impressive how the anchor disappears into the sand with only the chain to betray its presence. olewill
craigsmith
Well-Known Member
You have missed the point above: there is no possible scenario where adding a kellet of X kg is a superior solution to increasing the size of the anchor by X kg. End of story. No argument.
This would include adding X kg of dead weight to the anchor without increasing its size! This will provide the same benefit as a kellet even in the ideal position (as close to the anchor as possible)... which is, let's spell it out, to reduce the vertical lift on the anchor. William, the kellet is supported by the chain and hence the boat's buoyancy no matter where it is; there is nothing else above it to support it!
One more time: the effect that the kellet does have, from its tiny underwater weight, is totally insignificant in comparison to the forces which the anchor may be expected to handle even at shorter scopes. Read the article.
This would include adding X kg of dead weight to the anchor without increasing its size! This will provide the same benefit as a kellet even in the ideal position (as close to the anchor as possible)... which is, let's spell it out, to reduce the vertical lift on the anchor. William, the kellet is supported by the chain and hence the boat's buoyancy no matter where it is; there is nothing else above it to support it!
One more time: the effect that the kellet does have, from its tiny underwater weight, is totally insignificant in comparison to the forces which the anchor may be expected to handle even at shorter scopes. Read the article.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
If the 'kellet' is making a difference (most unlikely, since it's weight is likely to be the same as that of a metre or two of chain) then this will only be when the wind/tide is slight. Anchor weight alone will hold the boat still. As soon as the wind lifts enough to yaw the boat, the kellet becomes completely irrelevant, and scope becomes everything. Let out two more metres of chain (or whatever your kellet weighs) and you'll achieve the same effect. Well, a better effect really, since the angles are better.
Although the idea of limiting scope by using a kellet when you've got very little anchoring room sounds good, it doesn't do anything to improve the wind strength your anchor can tolerate.
Those who say they've been using kellets for years with no problems belong to the chalk ring class - 'I've been drawing this chalk ring around around my car for years, and it's prevented any elephants sitting on the car'. If you always anchor where there are no big winds (or elephants) then obviously kellets work for you - even if they're not needed. Snake oil.
Searush
Well-Known Member
Have you ever used one - or is it just theory? My angel is around 20kg, as much as I can safely handle on the foredeck.
My anchor is about 15kg plus about 100' of 8mm chain (about 50kg?) so a 20kg angel is roughly the equivalent of an extra 40% of chain in weight alone. I don't often need it, but when I have deployed it, it clearly makes a difference. It can also be used in conjunction with a rope rode if I ever need it. The whole point is to keep the pull on the anchor as close to horizontal as possible - which it does admirably & significantly reduces the risk of the chain pulling tight & jerking an anchor up & out of its grip on the bottom.
You may well wish to sell your fancy anchor, but why do you feel the need to decry a tried & tested technique that has been proven to work?
And where does the 1000kgf come from? A tonne of force on an anchor is not a common occurence is it? Few modern boat stem fittings would accept that level of force anyway.
And, Coaster, I have a large D-shackle to connect mine over the chain so it can be slid to the point on the chain where I want it. Ideally, I like mine just on the sea bed. That way, the chain on the sea bed tends to stay there keeping the pull on the anchor as close to horizontal as possible - that is the whole point of the thing. If, without an angel, the chain pulls tight, there is a risk that the pull on the anchor is high enough to cause it to lift & break out.
But I sail in an area with 11m tides, and that can be a problem.
Coaster
Well-Known Member
Thank you Searush. I presume you have a line attached to the angel or its shackle. Do you keep the line taut, or let it out a certain amount, or use some other method? I'd like to know a bit about the practicalities.
Incidentally, according to the Bradney Chains guide, 8mm short link chain weighs about 0.9lbs per ft or 1.5kg per m, so your weight estimate is accurate. But I expect you knew that.
PeterGibbs
Well-Known Member
Best of all is to leave it in the chandlery where it should remain to lure those unsuspecting raggies looking for toys. Once you've used one you know what I mean!
PWG
saltwater_gypsy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 13 Jan 2008
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THIS site: http://alain.fraysse.free.fr
contains a spreadsheet where you can explore the effect of a chum on the catenery of the anchor chain or combination of chain and rode. I already put this on Viv Cox's post about achor rode lengths which is on the page just a few posts ahead of you.
contains a spreadsheet where you can explore the effect of a chum on the catenery of the anchor chain or combination of chain and rode. I already put this on Viv Cox's post about achor rode lengths which is on the page just a few posts ahead of you.
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noelex
Well-Known Member
the angel will improve holding in mild / moderate winds ,but your anchor should not need help in these conditions. In strong winds the rode will be much straighter and 20kg wont make much difference to the angle of pull at the anchor. Extra scope will help, because even if bar tight the angle of pull is still reduced, so extra chain is much more effective than the equivalent weight of chain in the form of an angel.
Angels can help in reducing the swinging room in mild conditions, but they have little impact in the ultimate holding of an anchor. Try diving and observing the rode in 40k plus. On my yacht, even with 13mm chain the scope it is still almost completely straight in the gusts, I cannot see any reasonable sized angel having any practical effect on the angle of pull at the anchor.
I don't use an angel but a big loop of 13mm chain acts as an angel and can be useful on some occasions to reduce swinging. Attach a snubber and lower excess chain, It takes 15 to 20 K of wind before the boat starts to move. (often this is undesirable,because you will swing different to other yachts, but occasionally it can be usefull)
Searush
Well-Known Member
The estimate was based on carrying it to & from the car/ boat this spring after regalvanising it!
I lower the angel to the sea bed & allow a little slack. There can be problems due to chain & angel line tangling. Just pull up the 2 together. Remove angel & sort line - then recover anchor. Yes, it IS a faff, but I prefer to do that than drag.
In a worse case scenario & provided there is room to swing, I shackle the angel to the bitter end of the chain & shackle my hard eye spliced anchor warp to both. This adds up to 100' of nylon warp to further reduce any snatch. With 100' of chain & a 20kg chunk of steel bar on the sea bed, the chances of that lot pulling taut is pretty low. If there is little room to swing then I stick to just the depth of HW for the rope. The angel will drag around the sea bed but not far & the anchor seems to get much less load on it.
In most anchoring situations (reasonable summer weather) I don't need or use the angel & the chain will move around a little, but the first 10-20' of chain is often left undisturbed. It probably wouldn't matter if the anchor was disconnected! Get a bit of current, a high tide, strong wind over the tide (so that waves get steep) & it's quite a different matter. But most of that is about choice of anchorages rather than choice of anchor.
Personally I suggest you get a heavy weight - something very cheap or free, and experiment. If it works, fine, you have another tool in the box. If it doesn't, sell it on e-bay or weigh it in as scrap metal - you have lost very little & learned something. That's what I did & I am glad of the back up sitting in my bilges even if I don't need it very often, I am glad of it if I get caught out. The N coast of Anglesey is an unforgiving spot if you get it wrong.
Coaster
Well-Known Member
I like this idea. Presumably the angel also reduces veering about in an anchorage, in bad weather. To avoid carrying more weight than necessary, I wonder if a single metal item could serve as both an angel (as used by Searush in poor weather) and as a kedge anchor?
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
So, according to the above, in 'normal' conditions and contrary to some of the above posts, a Kellet can have a measurable effect!
and he concludes
bbg
Well-Known Member
Having used one, once, in gusty conditions, I would not use one again. I was using mostly rope rode in a relatively deep anchorage, and thought the angel just lowered to the bottom would help. In fact, as each gust passed the angel pulled me forward until it touched bottom. Then as the next gust came through, the boat was accelerated back until the rode became taut and brought the boat up sharply. I suspect the shock loads on the system were HIGHER due to the angel. If I hadn't had one, the boat would not have surged forward after each gust, and would not have had as much room to build up speed as the next gust came through.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
But you dont need an angel to do that. Deploy a chain hook on 20mtrs of Nylon warp, and then lower a large bight of your remaining chain to the seabed, where it will drag around the bottom and slow any cavorting around.
Looking at it logically, how on earth can a weight half way down the chain help if the chain is bar taught - doesn't make sence to me, and is also introducing complexity when you don't need it.
I have used a light one anchoring on warp, but for different reasons. To weigh the warp down to stop the warp going between fin and skeg in wind over tide situations - an imbarassing mishap and a sure way to drag in a spring tide!
Searush
Well-Known Member
Why do you keep insisting that the chain is "bar taut"? Clearly, in that case the angel wouldn't be working, but it is a spurious case that has NEVER occurred for me. The whole point of the angel is that it prevents it happening!
Coaster: a simple weight on its own has little value as an anchor except in the mildest conditions - hence the mud weights used on the Broads. I have used my kedge in tandem with the bower, but it has little benefit other than its weight as it is unable to dig in.
1bobt
N/A
Hi
Whenever I need a bit more holding I shackle another 26kg Delta to the bar on the head of the other 26kg Delta anchor with about 5meters of chain in between . With 52 kg down there it will take a very good wind to move us.
cheers bobt
Whenever I need a bit more holding I shackle another 26kg Delta to the bar on the head of the other 26kg Delta anchor with about 5meters of chain in between . With 52 kg down there it will take a very good wind to move us.
cheers bobt
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
I rest my case - can happens in anything over F6 so I am not sure why its not happening for you.
