Am I doing the right thing

[nicho]

After many years of owning motor cruisers, the last a Sealine S37 (no smoke from the engines, honest) kept in Hythe Marina and used for cruising to West Country, Channel Islands etc, sold the boat last Feb (some lucky soul is enjoying the Med sun in it right now). Got fed up with spiralling costs and Industry rip offs. Needed to be outside now that retirement has arrived so bought a caravan (big so and so, air-con the lot). Wife loves it, I don't - seems you have to have at least one of the following to qualify: arthritis, pacemaker, artificial hip(s) - got none of these yet. Took it to Britanny this year - what a mistake, surrounded by boats everywhere we went (isn't Benodet lovely?). So back we came and that's it, got to get back on the water - can't afford another motor cruiser though (hurray you shout), so after all these years of cursing the "arrogance" of Yotties, I'm about to order such a boat at the Show (Beneteau Oceanis 311 or Sun Odyssey 32). Any comment from you experienced guys about the Hanse range? Don't know too much about sailing though. Got Day Skipper and ICC for Power and several hundred hours experience, it's more what to do with the ropes (sorry warps and sheets) and those things that flap and drive the thing forward. Taking a weeks sailing course with Southern Sailing School, and a mate with a 34 footer who goes to the Baltic etc will take me out over the winter to give more tuition. I'm reallly looking forward to it, wife less so. What's your views, as a convertee, am I doing the right thing?

 

[Viking]

I think you've already made up your mind. You dont need us to justify your decision do you, or do you?

 

[rogerroger]

Hi Nicho

Welcome to the forum.

Of course most raggies will say you are doing the right thing converting from the "dark side" (tee hee).

But are your reason financially motivated only or do you really wish to embrace a different experience on the water? If you (deep down) still want a power boat but buy a rag & stick as a compromise will your heart really be in it ? If you're used to taking an hour getting from A to B - will you be able to handle those days when the same trip takes 6 hours or more?

If you think sailing is a cheaper option then remember that a new set of sails every 5 years will be around £2,000 and replacing warps, winches, dodgers, spray hoods etc isn't cheap. Costs spiral for raggies and we're every much as subject to industry rip offs as stinkies.

I don't know much about power boats but presumably you've considered a slower, semi displacement boat which is probably on par with a yacht in terms of cost of the years (fuel vs new sails etc)?

Your current experience and forthcoming week's course will probably make you better qualified than half the skipper's in the Solent on any given day...

Oh - and I reckon the new Sun Od 32 looks the best of the bunch - by far the heaviest of these "light" boats. I got a quote for one from the dealer in Cherbourg which was about £6k cheaper than here. The Hanse 301 looks fantastic value but at 29 foot it's a bit small. The Hanse 311 is worth a look although I wasn't impressed by the 341 (I think) - strange layout and almost no cockpit stowage.

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[ccscott49]

If you are going for a sailboat for cheapness, forget it and stay with motorboats, just get a slower one, semi or displacement, speed costs money, it's as simple as that. Sailing also costs money, in equipment etc. A motorboat, you can have a smaller one, with the same amount of accomadation as a bigger sailboat, they calculate your berth by the length of your boat, so you get more accomadation for your money with a motorboat.

 

[nicho]

HI Roger,

Thanks for the reply and the welcome. To be honest, I am being partially, but far from wholly, motivated by finance, because income does drop when you are retired, and as such do not want to tie up £150K in a boat again. Nevertheless, around £60K is OK (hence the choice I mentioned), and the running costs are not a problem (and significantly less than power). To come down power boat wise to anything in the £60K bracket would not be good, hence the need to try something different. The S37 was at the end of it's warranty period (engine wise) and I did not fancy any huge bills (and large marine diesels do not seem to be too reliable - mine were both out of the boat for major repairs to oil leaks under warranty that cost Mercruiser £thousands). I actually did quite a bit of dinghy sailing in the dim and distant past, and according to the guys at Southern Sailing, like riding a bike, you never really forget how to do it (hope I'm not the odd one out). I'm sure it will be very daunting first time I raise the sails on my own boat!!. I am actually pretty excited about the prospect, and can't wait for the boat to come next year. Incidentally, as a motor boat skipper, I really did go out of my way (in the crowded Solent in particular) to cause no problems wash wise, knowing the effect it can have on a sailing boat, often taking a major turn off intended route to go behind - I do have to say however that it was only very rarely I got any acknowledgement for my troubles. I do wish there could be better understanding on all sides..... No doubt I'll have cause to curse the motor cruisers next year!. Thanks for the comments on the boat choice - I'm sure it will be the Odyssey32 - great layout down below (and that's important to the wife!.

 

[nicho]

Many thanks - maybe I overplayed the finance bit - see my fuller reply to Roger re my motivation

 

[trev]

Personally in your position I would be looking for another motor cruiser, possibly a used example to keep purchase price within budget.
Sailing is very time consuming and can be v boring for 'er indoors, it also tends to be colder and wetter than motor cruising - I've been that way and due to familly pressures and time constraints came back to motor boats.

Trev

 

[Mirelle]

I would go a bit slower

The depreciation on the sort of new boat you are blooking at is fearsome, and you will be spending a lot more to complete the outfitting.

I would respectfully suggest something secondhand and a bit heavier in the same price range - look at the big Westerlys, maybe Moodys, etc.

 

[SloopJohnB]

You’ve basically got boats with emphasis on accommodation, boats that are primarily sea boats and boats in between.
Bavarias are everywhere now and it I think its fair to say that they are in the first category (Bav owners will no doubt disagree). I guess that if you’ve had a motor boat and a cara you might be looking to this category. Even if your not, I bet from what you say that SWMBO is. If it’s basically going to be the 2 of you, I’d go for a 32 footer. I wouldn’t go for much bigger than 32 ft which is a good size for 2 people to handle comfortably, you can usually get a berth when you want it and is plenty big enough below.
I haven’t tried but I bet you can get a real bargain Bav 32 at the moment. There’s so many about, why go for a new one? I’ve not heard any bad reports from owners I’ve met.
All IMHO of course.

If you’ve got lots of dosh there are many alternatives.

 

[SloopJohnB]

Boring??

Trev

I think you’ve missed the point. Nico has had a caravan/motor boat and now he wants a yacht. Doesn’t that tell you something?

 

[nicho]

Re: I would go a bit slower

Thanks, probably good advice, but having always bought new, I'm loathe to buy second hand and pick up the reasons why the boat is probably on the market in the first place. Also, I have been amazed at the price of second hand boats - three to five year old examples are not far away from new boat prices, even when good inventory is added to a new boat, and no doubt the rigging/sails etc would soon be ready for replacment on the used one. I understand Moody's and Westerley's are great sailing boats, but having looked at some 10 year old examples I would prefer something newer. Many thanks for the comments though

 

[Mirelle]

What I really want to say

is that you may change your mind. I recall the senior partner of a firm that I worked for who suddenly bought a new 60 -footer, never having sailed, so he had a professional crew. He decided that he liked it but wanted to do everything himself and went through three or four new boats, one a year, until he found what he wanted (a very capable 35 - footer ) and set off long distance in that. He was wealthy, but it seems an expensive way to do things.

Your idea of what sort of sailing boat you want may evolve quite fast -there is a huge range, from multihulls to motor sailers.

Some people say that the price of secondhand modern boats may be about to take a knock, as new boats are heavily discounted by the big European makers.

So, if buying new, start smaller - the smaller boat will be easier to sell on.

 

[nicho]

Trev - understood, but having once in the past made the mistake of swapping a 34 foot flybridge boat for a 31 foot cockpit boat, it did not take us long to go back to a Sealine F33, and then up to the S37. Can't really go backwards again, hence the desire to do something different. With regards to the good lady, she was always much happier crawling along the coast at 6/7 knots anyway, (which we did do occasionally). Taken on board what you say about boredom, but she seems pretty keen to go to sailing school herself (as did a lady friend of hers). In that case the poor old skipper is now relegated to crew whilst she steers and barks orders - not a trend that should perhaps be encouraged!

 

[rogerroger]

One thing I didn't like on the Sun Od 32 is the lack of chart table - it's one of the rear facing ones where you sit on the end of the saloon berth. The 32.2 has a more traditional layout with proper chart table but I then the 32 has a much bigger aft cabin.

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[AndrewB]

You\'re crazy!

Sorry, but its a fact. You are going to drop a bundle on this, which I ought not complain about, because its people like you that make boat ownership affordable for people like me.

Do a week's course. Go on a flotilla holiday. Join a club and sail with someone else regularly for a season. THEN if you still want it, OK. But if your wife didn't like the motorboat, she sure won't like a sailing yacht.

 

[robp]

How will she like heeling? My wife loves the peace and quiet when the engine goes off - if it's not apparent that the sea is going to jump up and grab her. She also likes the more "social" layout of motor cruisers however. I haven't committed yet, but have you thought about a Cat? More difficult for budget though.

The other thing to think about, is that whilst you wouldn't go out into rough seas in a motor, you could run for cover easier if caught out. That won't be so easy when sailing and a smaller light displacement boat will need some caution. You'll just need to plan carefully.

 

[SloopJohnB]

Got to agree about all the advice re 2nd hand or new. You can’t generalise about why people sell boats. Your not necessarily buying someone elses problem. There are a lot of people with enough money to be able to buy new and sell on straight away. Many people buy the wrong boat for them and find this out soon enough. That could be you. Why not take advantage of someone else’s mistake and buy 2nd hand. Get a modest boat that you reckon will meet your needs. Get it at the right price and then sell on at a modest/no loss if you find you don’t like it or, like it so much you want better!
I still reckon that for a first boat you could do worse than a newish 2nd hand Bav taking account of what you have told us about what think you need. You’d be surprised how much some people will drop their price.
Don’t agree with your view re 10 yr old Westerlys. There are some great boats to be found. I don’t know much about Moodys except that they are more accommodation oriented than Westerlys.
Bear in mind James Jermain’s views in all of this. He knows what he’s talking about.

 

[Gunfleet]

If you get a boat with modest freeboard it hardly matters what size it is. You can step on and off and control everything from one cord on the midships. But if it's four feet to the pontoon you'll soon learn to hate it or only go sailing with a crew of four. If I had a quid for every time I saw a late middle aged-couple struggling with a boat of high freeboard....

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Not sure if you know but SWMBO can participate in all female comp crew and day skipper courses
I think both Southern Sailing and Sunsail do them
and a few others
there was an artile in PBO about 4 months ago. I would recommend you subscribe.
just a thought
welcome to the forum

...It was like that when i found it!

 

[charles_reed]

You probably are - I've met many ex-stinkies who've converted to rags, as soon as they've had the time to go nowhere, slowly and damply.

However, I suspect your methodology is founded on some misconceptions and here are my suggestions and the reasons for them.

1. Don't buy in the UK - it's more expensive than the rest of Europe and the service (certainly post-sale) far inferior.
2. Seriously consider good 2nd hand boats - they've usually got far fewer faults (the production snags having been sorted by the previous owner), they're usually far better value for money (it's the additional equipment you get rather than depreciation).
3. If you intend to jump in at the deep end, I'd strongly recommend you look for an easily singlehanded boat. You may want to jump in at the deep end but your wife might not, you can come to a mutual accomodation - you do the passagemaking and the wife joins you for the cruising.
4. In choosing a sailboat, go for the longest LWL you can afford - that gives you the greatest seagoing comfort, stowage, speed etc. The LOA is a marketing misleader - you'll find the French boats especially, exaggerate their lengths to enhance their appeal.
5. If you can find it, a shoal draft boat, that dries upright has many benefits - the greatest of these being that you can get away from the crowd and visit some magnificent places.

I take it, with the time you'll now have, you'll not be sailing in the UK, cold, damp, overcrowded and expensive as it is - but don't automatically head for the Med as most Brits seem to. That also is expensive and overcrowded but hot.
Have a look at the Atlantic coast of Europe - the farther you get from Southampton Water the more economical the boating becomes and the less crowded the waters get.
I reckon French costs of living/boating are 65% of the UK, Spain 45-55% and Portugal 35-40%.
Currently I spend about 8 months a year outside the UK, have my wife join me for about 3 of these - she welcome to come for more but gardens and grandchildren demand her time.

As regards learning the sailing lark - if you golf you'll soon find the intrinsic similarities - it is quite different to powerboating.
Do some dinghy sailing, its the best introduction.