sailaboutvic
Well-known member
No disrespect , I think I wait untill John answer the question . Best when the answer comes from the expert .
Isn't it major issues ?
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Advice ref what to offer for a boat?
- Thread starter davethedog
- Start date
Isn't it major issues ?
Tranona
Well-known member
There is no hard and fast rule, which is why the contract is not more specific - as in the Dutch HISWA contract where there is a percentage of contract clause on the allowable defects before the buyer can pull out. There are pros and cons of each approach, but in a UK type contract there is an assumption that you have inspected the boat and its description and your offer is based on what you see. So the survey is intended to check for any major failings that are either not declared or not obvious to the untrained eye So if the description says that sails were new in 2007 and rigging was last replaced in , you would not expect these to form any basis for renegotiation.
Add to that one of the reasons for insisting on a deposit is to enable the seller to extract a penalty from a buyer who wants to withdraw for minor reasons. Heard of an example of just such a case last week where the survey threw up relatively minor issues such as new rudder bearings that totaled only a few hundred £s on a £20K+ boat. The buyer refused to negotiate over these items and insisted on withdrawing. The vendor agreed, but subject to retaining 50% of the deposit.
The moral is that a buyer should be totally "sold" on the boat before entering into a contract and do all the due diligence before making an offer and signing a contract. Those who get into difficulties are invariably those who throw out a speculative offer, get carried away and have second thoughts.
The person who bought my boat spent two 4 hour sessions on the boat before making his offer, so he knew exactly what he wanted and was getting for his money and the sale went through without a hitch.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Thanks T
jwilson
Well-known member
Tranona beat me to it: everything he says is correct.
There is no automatic right of return of deposit if the buyer simply changes his mind: only if there are "material defects", or if the contract specifies a value percentage instead of the "material defects" phrase.
"Material defects" is a deliberately vague phrase: you can easily have a string of individually minor issues come up on survey that added up to 5% or 10% of the agreed price, none being serious and all easily if expensively fixed, and if the seller was happy to pay for these to be properly repaired and/or deduct the cost of new items, this should not necessarily stop the sale or give the buyer a reason to pull out. The buyer has to remember that the offer/deposit/survey process has taken the boat off the market for a significant time, possibly losing the seller another more committed buyer.
There is no automatic right of return of deposit if the buyer simply changes his mind: only if there are "material defects", or if the contract specifies a value percentage instead of the "material defects" phrase.
"Material defects" is a deliberately vague phrase: you can easily have a string of individually minor issues come up on survey that added up to 5% or 10% of the agreed price, none being serious and all easily if expensively fixed, and if the seller was happy to pay for these to be properly repaired and/or deduct the cost of new items, this should not necessarily stop the sale or give the buyer a reason to pull out. The buyer has to remember that the offer/deposit/survey process has taken the boat off the market for a significant time, possibly losing the seller another more committed buyer.
drakes drum
Member
It all depends on what the boat is. If its a complete one off and the only boat you would consider buying then maybe you have to be a bit more sensitive to the buyers feelings. If though, like most of us, the OP is buying a Bav 36 or similar commodity AWB then there are loads about so no worry if the owner wants to be offended. Move on. Maybe even make low offers on three boats, all subject to contract of course, and see which seller weakens first.
The boat is only ever worth what someone will pay for it. I'll give you an example. A sailing friend of mine was idly looking for a Sadler 29 bilge. Went to view one but wasnt really ready to buy. The seller told him his price which I think from memory was 19k. Pal wasnt interested and said so. Seller asked him what he would pay and pal said 13k, not intending it even to be a serious offer. It was accepted. And there is nothing wrong with the boat, no osmosis, new engine decent cosmetics and sails. Have a look at the current advertised prices for these boats.
It really quite odd that people accept depreciation of cars without question but for some reason expect boats to stay stable. Why should they - they are only mass manufactured consumer goods like any other
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freddy the frog
New member
i think i would rather pay a little more for a nice example than a few grand less for some ex charter thats had the a---e nocked out of it.
no different than buying a car, the better ones fetch a bit more.
you get what you pay for
no different than buying a car, the better ones fetch a bit more.
you get what you pay for
oldgit
Well-known member
The motorboat market is not in obviously such good health as the sailing one.
Five or so twin diesel flybridges bought/sold around here recently,all within 8M to 12M size range,prices seemed to settle about 20% off .
Suspect it could depend on just how long a boat has been on the market.
Went to look at boat in Norfolk recently.
Parked nearby was a similar boat that I had viewed 12 months previously, price now reduced by £5K.Maybe will ring again in 12 months and see if the price drops again.
Most brokers used to offer free mooring while the boat was on brokerage at their mooring, this appears to have been stopped by at least one local company .
Five or so twin diesel flybridges bought/sold around here recently,all within 8M to 12M size range,prices seemed to settle about 20% off .
Suspect it could depend on just how long a boat has been on the market.
Went to look at boat in Norfolk recently.
Parked nearby was a similar boat that I had viewed 12 months previously, price now reduced by £5K.Maybe will ring again in 12 months and see if the price drops again.
Most brokers used to offer free mooring while the boat was on brokerage at their mooring, this appears to have been stopped by at least one local company .
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sailaboutvic
Well-known member
An offer of 13k on an 19k boat is 6k m which is very different from has some suggested if I remember right to make an offer of 40 K on an 75K boat .
Of cause near everyone make an offer , what I said is make one that justify the condition of the boat , you have more chance of getting it then .
Also you have to remember , most genuine buying are looking for a moody , westerly, or what ever , at 8, 10 , 12mts and there only so many around , out of them , there only going to be a few in a good condition worth buying , do you really want to P of an owner who's boat might be just right for you .
As an example you mention Bav 36 , yacht market have 9 in the UK Yacht world have 2 , how many of them is in the buyer price range ? Not so many yacht around now to chose from and there all space around the UK .
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superheat6k
Well-known member
I fail to understand why buyers or vendors feel they must adhere to some rigid and indeed arbitrary contract. Yes much of a standard contract, e.g. RYA format, might be absolutely fine, but nothing wrong with introducing your own preferential terms - you are still the buyer after all.
So when placing an offer you are perfectly entitled to couch it in any terms you may wish to. When I made my last purchase I included several specific terms, including one providing me an absolute right to walk away with full refund of deposit (obviously less any direct costs not settled e.g. haul out for survey) if for any reason I was not happy to proceed and without any obligation to negotiate further.
The vendor has a similar right whether to accept these specific terms. Some brokers might not like this, but it is not them buying the boat, and a broker remains obliged to pass the offer made on in its entirety.
jwilson
Well-known member
The contract is not written in stone: we do sometimes amend it slightly, but I would not advise many sellers to change it to allow a simple "changed my mind" get-out clause.
Would the buyer like it if after haul-out and survey costs paid by the buyer the owners just changed his mind about selling? The contracts do have a function.
Would the buyer like it if after haul-out and survey costs paid by the buyer the owners just changed his mind about selling? The contracts do have a function.
jac
Well-known member
I don't understand this fixation on getting a % off the asking price. I can understand why getting a percentage of the value might be a reasonable base for an offer but unless you know how competitive the original asking price was, you can't use it as a basis for pricing.
davethedog
Active member
As an update, we upped our offer to what we considered a reasonable amount (52,000) and the seller has stated he will take 54,000 and will not drop any more money if the survey picks up any issues with the keel bolts or standing rigging.....so we are looking at other options now.
We offered 5K less than the asking and he said no, so there you go, we will not be buying that boat as 52K was our max for the boat with the understanding that we may have to spend a few grand on it straight away.
Shame, but we are in no rush.
We offered 5K less than the asking and he said no, so there you go, we will not be buying that boat as 52K was our max for the boat with the understanding that we may have to spend a few grand on it straight away.
Shame, but we are in no rush.
Biggles Wader
Well-known member
It occurs to me that in a limited community like ours the vendor may well be a reader of this forum.That would put a different perspective on negotiations if they were carried out in semi public.
steveeasy
Well-known member
So many variables, and of course expert opinion that only covers certain sectors of a big market. any offer is better than nothing. its the start, or part of negotiations. the really only important factor is both potential buyers and indeed sellers do so in the right spirit.
Of course the interaction between a buyer and a seller and indeed the broker can really throw a spanner in the works. .
Steveeasy
Of course the interaction between a buyer and a seller and indeed the broker can really throw a spanner in the works. .
Steveeasy
Neil
Well-known member
Just to put things in context, a HR62 has been up for sale for more than a year and they've now dropped the asking by €100K......still out of my price bracket, though! 
jac
Well-known member
My copy of YM arrived today and I noticed that there was an article in it saying that the market was starting to pick up and that with the pound losing some value against the euro the uk was getting a boost. Euro priced boats become more expensive so euro buyers are more likely to buy here and it's less attractive for us to buy abroad..
Time will tell!
Time will tell!
ghostlymoron
Well-known member
The EU referendum will have a dramatic effect on the exchange rate short term. Could be a good time to buy/sell from Eurozone (or bad time).
CreakyDecks
New member
I agree with Biggles Wader. If the seller is a reader of this forum and reads a post that says you have made a bid that you don't expect to be accepted then you had no chance. You should have posted that a friend of yours just bought the same boat for £48k and that you had no intention of spending any more!
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
He also wrote ( We offered 5K less than the asking and he said no, so there you go, we will not be buying that boat as 52K was our max for the boat with the understanding that we )
So if that was the case if the owner wanted to sell he would had expect the offer .
steve yates
Well-known member
If I was buying, I would have in my head what I could afford. I might look at boats beyond that, and make the offer, just in case they really wanted to sell.
But I would most definitely be looking to get a lot of value for my cash, and without being disrespectful to the owners, I would happily shrug and walk away if I thought they were asking too much.
On the flip side, if I saw what I wanted and everything was hunky dory, I would happily do the deal there and then, and not think about it or wait a while to see if something better came along.
I've seen boats slowly come down to almost half their price in my saved searches over the last year or so, and I can't help but wonder how quickly that boat would have sold if only they had taken quarter or a third off the price at the time.
And for anyone trying to sell a boat, for god's sake, empty it out, tidy it up and clean it, then get lots of pics of it. Proper wide angle ones that are in focus and well exposed.
If I don't see lots of pics, my automatic assumption is they are too embarrassed to show them and I would never come and view it.
But I would most definitely be looking to get a lot of value for my cash, and without being disrespectful to the owners, I would happily shrug and walk away if I thought they were asking too much.
On the flip side, if I saw what I wanted and everything was hunky dory, I would happily do the deal there and then, and not think about it or wait a while to see if something better came along.
I've seen boats slowly come down to almost half their price in my saved searches over the last year or so, and I can't help but wonder how quickly that boat would have sold if only they had taken quarter or a third off the price at the time.
And for anyone trying to sell a boat, for god's sake, empty it out, tidy it up and clean it, then get lots of pics of it. Proper wide angle ones that are in focus and well exposed.
If I don't see lots of pics, my automatic assumption is they are too embarrassed to show them
and I would never come and view it.