Advice problems after boat sank

steveeasy

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I suspect that solicitors will require some money up front, something the OP hinted he didn't have much off.
Who does, and if they do, little point giving it away. I walked in to a office with a chq for £10,000 for money upfront. we sat waiting to hand it over and they kept us waiting for far too long. Big mistake. We both glanced at each other and ran for the door. That money would have achieved absolutely nothing.

Still makes me chuckle. if only they could have been punctual.

Steveeasy
 

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I suspect that solicitors will require some money up front, something the OP hinted he didn't have much off.
As soon as the other party gets wind of that, they might start the letter game-- back & forth, thus costing the Op a fortune & putting him in to a deliberate cost issue. Continue, or give up due to lack of funds.
 

prestomg27

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I suspect that solicitors will require some money up front, something the OP hinted he didn't have much off.
I fear you are right. One of the drawɓacks of sailing on the cheap, with basic insurance, is that if things go wrong it usually needs money to get out of the hole and if you haven't any money then it is difficult to keep going at all.
 

ylop

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Hey Tranona,

I did read through the .Gov and was left with more questions then answers which is how i'm afraid iv ended up here. Thank you for your response its exactly what i was hoping for when i made the post i rely just want to go about this in the correct way to maximise the chance it can be resolved in the correct way i don't want to be seen as a bad actor in this so far the advice iv been given in person by a friend may not be the correct way but its all i had.
When it comes to working out what is reasonable a good way to look at it is if the shoe was on the other foot - you had leant your boat to a third party, it had not been secured properly and have subsequently caused damage to another what you you have done?

Simple you would have passed it to your insurer. Who would not have settled in a month. Moreover as soon as your insurer heard it was loaned to someone else and they might have made the mistake they would be asking if they could pass the buck. You might have been embarrassed that the insurer was taking so long or wasn’t treating this as a high priority but you probably wouldn’t have been too worried. If you got an amateur letter making silly demands from someone who hadn’t engaged a solicitor you would pass it to your insurer but shrug.

Expecting a response in 10 days was silly, 14 days would be normal for simple claims without any holidays. Potentially your claim is not trivial - it sounds like there may be two screw ups, the original damage and then the subsequent falling back in the water. I’d have given them 28 days! Even then, had you done that, you would have received a holding response.
I did try to hire a professional surveyor to assess the damage of the boat and situation and to make a proper report up but he turned me down as it would be a conflict of interest as he has worked and had more work booked in with the harbour, sadly its a small world in the marine sector and iv been told this by a few and i can barley afford their going rate of locals so doubt i can afford to hire one from further afield even a solicitor seems cheaper then the day rate of a marine surveyor !
A surveyor is probably cheaper than a solicitor. I’m surprised they think they have a conflict of interest - all you want is an independent figure for the value - if it’s fair and reasonable no harbour authority is going to hold that against them. Were you trying to get something unrealistic or have them ascribe blame?
I plan to draft a letter today to apologize for my previous approach, which may have been too assertive. I also intend to seek legal assistance before sending any further correspondence, but again if anyone has more advice having being through such a thing themselves id love to hear how it went and how you went about it.
You don’t need to appologise as such. Simply a letter being more reasonable, acknowledging the time of year, and providing a further opportunity for resolution without recourse to the courts. I suggest you hold off sending anything until the new year - nobody is going to be reading it today!

However - I would check if you have house or other insurance with “legal protection” policy on it - often it’s an add on you have to unselect to save some money. At the very least you would usually get the initial “do I have a claim” meeting free, and if you do and it’s likely to get paid they will offer to take it on.
He must show first that they owed a duty of care (which they almost certainly do) that they failed in this (maybe because the mooring ropes were inadequate or poorly maintained) and that a loss or damage occurred to his boat.
I would suggest that showing this is a job for a solicitor with experience in the area. You will only be required to prove this if it goes to court or the other side disputes there was a duty. Sometimes it’s better not to highlight that there is any doubt about that.
 

steveeasy

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the boat was salvaged at the harbours request and put on a semi drying finger pontoon to make it safe but in a second storm it went down again and went from a usable project boat to a total loss while waiting for there loss adjusters to come see it.

Just some thoughts.
Did it actually sink the first time or was it damaged but not sunk.

The Harbour Authority moved it and made it secure, but a second storm sunk it. How much time in between ?. did you visit it in between ? why was it not lifted ?. They may well be liable in the first instance.

lots of questions here. Id have expected them to charge you to recover the boat first time unless they had accepted some liability ?

Steveeasy
 

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Is the Op a member of the RYA? 23years ago, I used their free legal (one off ) service to recover money from a sailmaker who made a sail wrongly & refused to accept the blame. A letter from the solicitor soon sorted the issue & funds were returned within 14 days. If the RYA still offer this service & if the Op is a member, it could be an option for advice, if nothing else. If that had not worked, I could then have engaged the solicitor direct, to work on my behalf.
 

Tranona

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Is the Op a member of the RYA? 23years ago, I used their free legal (one off ) service to recover money from a sailmaker who made a sail wrongly & refused to accept the blame. A letter from the solicitor soon sorted the issue & funds were returned within 14 days. If the RYA still offer this service & if the Op is a member, it could be an option for advice, if nothing else. If that had not worked, I could then have engaged the solicitor direct, to work on my behalf.
That may work when the dispute is under contract law as in your example, but this third party claim is likely to be far more complicated. There really is little one can suggest other than submitting a claim based on the facts as the OP sees them and await a response.
 

Daydream believer

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That may work when the dispute is under contract law as in your example, but this third party claim is likely to be far more complicated. There really is little one can suggest other than submitting a claim based on the facts as the OP sees them and await a response.
So are you saying, that to kick things off, the differing advice of mostly unqualified forumites, is better than the initial free advice of a solicitor, when/if available ?
 

Tranona

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So are you saying, that to kick things off, the differing advice of mostly unqualified forumites, is better than the initial free advice of a solicitor, when/if available ?
No, I am not saying that, just observing that simple contract disputes are very different from the OP's scenario. Initial advice from a solicitor based on the information provided so far would be little different from what has been suggested here by more than one poster. Actually providing professional services to prepare the claim is unlikely to be cheap.
 

steveeasy

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You get a good balanced opinion from Here. A visit to a lawyer will cost you an hour and a couple to put it on paper.

What I don’t understand is why the op says it sunk again before the harbour authorities loss adjuster could view.

That sort of does not tie in with no response. That statement implies someone was acting quite swiftly.

Steveeasy

I’ve never had free advice. To be frank you get little if you pay for their time.
 

Tranona

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You get a good balanced opinion from Here. A visit to a lawyer will cost you an hour and a couple to put it on paper.

What I don’t understand is why the op says it sunk again before the harbour authorities loss adjuster could view.

That sort of does not tie in with no response. That statement implies someone was acting quite swiftly.

Steveeasy

I’ve never had free advice. To be frank you get little if you pay for their time.
There are many unanswered questions There seems to have been 2 events. First the pontoon breaking loose and damaging the boat. Then the boat was moved to a different berth (by whom?) and in a later storm, it sank. No indication as to what the damage was first time, what caused the sinking and whether the two were linked.

The legal position is quite clear in one sense - that is make a claim against the third party. Their insurer will want details of the claim describing what happened, what the damage was and the cost of re-instatement. Inevitably this will require diagrams, photos and quotes for repairs. The insurer will appoint a loss adjuster to assess the claim and then either accept or more likely either contest liability, make an offer or both. That is the point at which a dispute may arise and where professional advice may be of value. If the OP has doubts about his ability to make a claim it is more likely that a surveyor would be the first person to engage for advice.
 

penberth3

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There are many unanswered questions There seems to have been 2 events. First the pontoon breaking loose and damaging the boat. Then the boat was moved to a different berth (by whom?) and in a later storm, it sank. No indication as to what the damage was first time, what caused the sinking and whether the two were linked.....

Indeed, could this be another of those threads which start with something less than the full story?
 

bedouin

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You get a good balanced opinion from Here. A visit to a lawyer will cost you an hour and a couple to put it on paper.

What I don’t understand is why the op says it sunk again before the harbour authorities loss adjuster could view.

That sort of does not tie in with no response. That statement implies someone was acting quite swiftly.

Steveeasy

I’ve never had free advice. To be frank you get little if you pay for their time.

As I see it there are two problems the OP needs to face to win a claim - neither of which are really within the expertise of a solicitor.

Firstly was the harbour negligent in letting the pontoon break free and collide with his boat and secondly following the initial damage did he take adequate steps to minimise his loss (although it is possible the second event didn't cause any additional damage).

Both those questions need the expert opinion of a surveyor.
 

steveeasy

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Confussed.
Let’s say the harbour replaced all fittings prior to the pontoon breaking free and he can prove everything done was up to standard.
Would this mean he was not liable for the damage to the boat. It was his pontoon that damaged another persons property.

Just to understand why he would not be liable or would he ?

Steveeasy
 

benjenbav

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Confussed.
Let’s say the harbour replaced all fittings prior to the pontoon breaking free and he can prove everything done was up to standard.
Would this mean he was not liable for the damage to the boat. It was his pontoon that damaged another persons property.

Just to understand why he would not be liable or would he ?

Steveeasy
This is a good example of how difficult negligence can be.

Does the harbour have a duty to secure the pontoons? Probably.

If so, how secure? A. Enough to withstand the worst weather that can be expected in an average year?

B. Enough to withstand a 100 year event?

If A is the standard, did the harbour discharge that duty?

If B, likewise?

It becomes apparent that on each of the above questions it’s possible for there to be more than one point of view.

If you daisychain the whole sequence of events there will be arguable issues at several other points.
 

steveeasy

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I’d be trying to gather evidence from the pontoon. Checking the lines and fittings. Perhaps witness statements both prior and afterwards.
May be the authority keep a record of maintenance of po toons or not so.

Steveeasy
 

Tranona

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If you daisychain the whole sequence of events there will be arguable issues at several other points.
Indeed. Based on what the OP says there seems to have been at least 2 events. The first the pontoon breaking free and hitting his boat. Then the boat was moved (by whom?) to a different berth (on whose advice?) an later during another period of bad weather it sank.

Once the liability issues are settled, hopefully in favour of the claimant the next challenge will be quantifying the loss, not least determining the loss from the first event in relation to the second.

Good basis for a case study for a final year assignment though!
 
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