a real tragedy to our follow cruiser

[grumpygit]

The crew appeared to be pretty experienced, if unfamiliar with the boat.
"1 USCG licensed captain; 1 with over fifteen years of sailing experience"

People seem to think that they had an accidental gybe, but that's not what happened. They were head to wind and wave action was throwing the boom around.

I think the take away is to reef early especially if the weather is different to the forecast.

Such a terrible accident and I'm not sure we should sitting in judgement, we were not there and it is so easy sat at our keyboards and make judgement.
I think hand on heart most of us if not all have got caught out and into a position or situation where we should have reefed earlier or could have done something different to stop something happening.
At the end of the day we should learn by the mistakes of ones own or others, and be thankful we still can.

 

[KeelsonGraham]

We have slab reefing. We never turn up in to the wind to reef. We reef downwind as a matter of course. You can't do that with inboom reefing.
We also reef with one person on watch but we don't have a single line led back to the cockpit. We do all reefing at the mast. Super simple with absolute minimal friction. Large granny bars, five winches on the mast and fully battened sail on Selden cars endures fast and easy reefing

Err yes you can in-boom reef downwind.

Slab reefing is great, when you reef early - as you ought. But when you screw up and end up with too much sail up in an F9 and with waves breaking over the boat (don’t ask) then going up to the mast to put another reef in is pretty scary and dangerous.

I’m not advocating for in-boom furling. I’m simply saying that it isn’t necessarily a dangerous choice.

 

[geem]

Err yes you can in-boom reef downwind.

Slab reefing is great, when you reef early - as you ought. But when you screw up and end up with too much sail up in an F9 and with waves breaking over the boat (don’t ask) then going up to the mast to put another reef in is pretty scary and dangerous.

I’m not advocating for in-boom furling. I’m simply saying that it isn’t necessarily a dangerous choice.

We have America friends with inboom reefing. They can't reef down wind. They start the engine and turn head to wind. Tom Cunliffe did a video on in boom reefing. He says you can't reef downwind. The guys who died turned up into the wind with their inboom reefing. Why do you think you can reef down wind with inboom reefing? I would genuinely be interested.
We go to the mast routinely to reef. Its not comfortable doing it but nothing is easy in F9 conditions. Turning up in to the wind in those conditions would be potentially more dangerous than going to the mast whilst running downwind in my opinion. We have been in big seas and blowing to the point that we need to drop the mainsail or needed the third reef. We do it successfully but much of that comes down to the type of boat you sail, the way the boat is set up and the technique you use. There are boats that I think going on deck during a blow would be crazy. If you had to go on deck in such a boat to deal with an issue you are going to be in a far more dangerous place than on our boat.
We have high guard wires that are super strong, large strong granny bars, a flush deck with wide side decks and excellent grip. The boat is heavy with a very easy motion and heavy keel. The mast is set up for easy trouble free reefing from the mast. Jackstays run inside the granny bars. Since we reef at the mast we are used to doing it. Going on deck holds no concerns for us but we are always careful and sensible with how we go about those tasks.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

The inboom upwind/downwind question could be settled by the CNB66 ops manual.

Anyone got one?

 

[25931]

Such a terrible accident and I'm not sure we should sitting in judgement, we were not there and it is so easy sat at our keyboards and make judgement.
I think hand on heart most of us if not all have got caught out and into a position or situation where we should have reefed earlier or could have done something different to stop something happening.
At the end of the day we should learn by the mistakes of ones own or others, and be thankful we still can.

I posted this with the hope we all learn something from it ,
It was a bit of a shocked as we had met the couple once ,
I think it hits home more if you knew the person .
I sure we all heard the old saying if your thinking about reefing it probably too late.
That stand true to this day.
Two thinks need to be taken in account,
We all make mistakes what ever our X years of experience is, hopeful we live though tho mistakes and learn something.
Sadly not in this case.
Secondly the account is coming from the crew, I'm not suggesting it's not correct ,
Who to say they wasn't instructed to do one thing and it was a mistake they made that lead to the unfortunate events.
Many of us push ourself and boats to the limit me included although as we get older we push less and less these days,
Most of the time our experience, quick thinking and having partner/crew with good knowledge and seamanship get us through when mistakes are made.
Sadly this wasn't a good ended.

I doubt if the crew were instructed to reef at nightfall.

 

[grumpygit]

We have America friends with inboom reefing. They can't reef down wind. They start the engine and turn head to wind. Tom Cunliffe did a video on in boom reefing. He says you can't reef downwind. The guys who died turned up into the wind with their inboom reefing. Why do you think you can reef down wind with inboom reefing? I would genuinely be interested.
We go to the mast routinely to reef. Its not comfortable doing it but nothing is easy in F9 conditions. Turning up in to the wind in those conditions would be potentially more dangerous than going to the mast whilst running downwind in my opinion. We have been in big seas and blowing to the point that we need to drop the mainsail or needed the third reef. We do it successfully but much of that comes down to the type of boat you sail, the way the boat is set up and the technique you use. There are boats that I think going on deck during a blow would be crazy. If you had to go on deck in such a boat to deal with an issue you are going to be in a far more dangerous place than on our boat.
We have high guard wires that are super strong, large strong granny bars, a flush deck with wide side decks and excellent grip. The boat is heavy with a very easy motion and heavy keel. The mast is set up for easy trouble free reefing from the mast. Jackstays run inside the granny bars. Since we reef at the mast we are used to doing it. Going on deck holds no concerns for us but we are always careful and sensible with how we go about those tasks.

Apart from the mention of inboom reefing which I have no knowledge of, I could have wrote # geem's post myself in describing our last cruiser and I can only be in total agreement with him.
Our fully battened main was circa 55sqm on Seldon RCB track and cars (the ball bearing type) and I tried this downwind reefing on advice from a chief sailing instructor, it just did not like being reefed downwind and it took a lot more effort and a fight at the mast. In to wind was a doddle, release the jammer and down it came with ease, even with a decent wag on the boom.
In all my sailing years I have only ever done in to wind reefing, this downwind reefing seems to be thought as a new concept that seems to be gaining popularity over the last decade or so.
It may or may not work for inboom or inmast but how many boats with these systems have you seen with their sails in tatters after getting jammed in an unexpected blow.
By some of the comments on this topic there does seem to be some holy than thou puritans on this tragedy, my take is stop trying to be superior to others, it doesn't come across very kindly.

 

[grumpygit]

Apologies, got duplicated somehow, fat fingers probably

 

[Kelpie]

In all my sailing years I have only ever done in to wind reefing, this downwind reefing seems to be thought as a new concept that seems to be gaining popularity over the last decade or so.

As is often the case in sailing, the 'new' idea has a much older solution- junk, gaff, and lug rigs are all easier to reef going downwind than a bermudan rig.

I try to never carry more sail downwind than I could carry upwind. What if you have a MOB, or other sudden need to change course? But it's much easier said than done, and what starts with being overpressed in the gusts can quickly lead to being in a bad situation. Most of the time you get away with it... and at some point, you won't...

 

[geem]

As is often the case in sailing, the 'new' idea has a much older solution- junk, gaff, and lug rigs are all easier to reef going downwind than a bermudan rig.

I try to never carry more sail downwind than I could carry upwind. What if you have a MOB, or other sudden need to change course? But it's much easier said than done, and what starts with being overpressed in the gusts can quickly lead to being in a bad situation. Most of the time you get away with it... and at some point, you won't...

Unfortunately that doesn't really work on long downwind passages. Carrying a spinnaker or setting twin heads sails for downwind work is a necessity to keep a boat moving. The MOB situation especially when just a couple on-board is a potential nightmare. Work out a procedure that you both agree to before it ever happens. Ours is MOB button on plotter, beanbags over the side(these are bespoke life safety aids with fluorescent tape and handles full of polystyrene beads and the quickest thing to deploy), drop sails, motor back to MOB point and start search. If you have a large crew a different solution my be possible but with just one person remaining on-board to do everything you have limited options

 

[Kelpie]

Unfortunately that doesn't really work on long downwind passages. Carrying a spinnaker or setting twin heads sails for downwind work is a necessity to keep a boat moving. The MOB situation especially when just a couple on-board is a potential nightmare. Work out a procedure that you both agree to before it ever happens. Ours is MOB button on plotter, beanbags over the side(these are bespoke life safety aids with fluorescent tape and handles full of polystyrene beads and the quickest thing to deploy), drop sails, motor back to MOB point and start search. If you have a large crew a different solution my be possible but with just one person remaining on-board to do everything you have limited options

Yes as soon as I posted, I thought "actually I break this rule all the time". Any downwind setup whether spinnaker, or just pole and preventer, complicates turning around.
It's a series of trade-offs, and you have to decide what is the safest plan overall.

 

[grumpygit]

Yes as soon as I posted, I thought "actually I break this rule all the time". Any downwind setup whether spinnaker, or just pole and preventer, complicates turning around.
It's a series of trade-offs, and you have to decide what is the safest plan overall.

Just my opinion but I feel awareness and experience is far far better than a plan. I worry when people say they have a plan, a plan to what? Does one see the exact to happen that needs that exact plan?
I very much doubt it, life doesn't delve out good problems, only bad and these whack it's here type problems need to be dealt with on the hoof and usually quickly.
And yes we all break the rules all the time and life is a trade off.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Just my opinion but I feel awareness and experience is far far better than a plan. I worry when people say they have a plan, a plan to what? Does one see the exact to happen that needs that exact plan?
I very much doubt it, life doesn't delve out good problems, only bad and these whack it's here type problems need to be dealt with on the hoof and usually quickly.
And yes we all break the rules all the time and life is a trade off.

There is a very good saying. based on Benjamin Franklin quote:

Fail to plan, equates to planning to fail.

A basic plan gives a ready starting point for something like a MOB without having to work out what to do, it may be modified along the way but it starts you off.

 

[geem]

Just my opinion but I feel awareness and experience is far far better than a plan. I worry when people say they have a plan, a plan to what? Does one see the exact to happen that needs that exact plan?
I very much doubt it, life doesn't delve out good problems, only bad and these whack it's here type problems need to be dealt with on the hoof and usually quickly.
And yes we all break the rules all the time and life is a trade off.

At 7knts you will be over 100ft from an MOB in 10secs. We drill it in so that it's the first thing we do when sailing down wind. MOB button, then beanbags over the side. What happens after that is dependant on sailplan, sea state, weather, etc up wind or beam reaching, etc. Its totally different

 

[sailaboutvic]

At 7knts you will be over 100ft from an MOB in 10secs. We drill it in so that it's the first thing we do when sailing down wind. MOB button, then beanbags over the side. What happens after that is dependant on sailplan, sea state, weather, etc up wind or beam reaching, etc. Its totally different

What you posted is about as close as anyone can do

If fine for us to sit back and say they should had done this or that but as most of us know when things start going wrong they go wrong quickly and what we might do sitting behind a key board with a coffee in our hand with all the time in the world to edit our post and what we do in 1000 different situation when the shit hit the fans is something else.
We know what we should do but if circumstances at the time convince us to do them or not is another matter .

 

[Wansworth]

When I worked on the coasters it took the best part of two days to free up and launch the life boat?

 

[grumpygit]

At 7knts you will be over 100ft from an MOB in 10secs. We drill it in so that it's the first thing we do when sailing down wind. MOB button, then beanbags over the side. What happens after that is dependant on sailplan, sea state, weather, etc up wind or beam reaching, etc. Its totally different

Of course, make the person in the water as safe as possible, but this should be instinct? The rest has to be sorted accordingly, then when all is hopefully back to normal ask the question, why was you all in such a position to become a MOB statistic?
In all my sailing years the only thing that has ever gone MOB is the danbouy.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Of course, make the person in the water as safe as possible, but this should be instinct? The rest has to be sorted accordingly, then when all is hopefully back to normal ask the question, why was you all in such a position to become a MOB statistic?
In all my sailing years the only thing that has ever gone MOB is the danbouy.

I wish it was just a danbouy. Half of my tool box is on one sea bed or another .

 

[grumpygit]

I wish it was just a danbouy. Half of my tool box is on one sea bed or another .

Okay yes I told a small porky because I can sympathise with you on this one.

 

[Kelpie]

Just my opinion but I feel awareness and experience is far far better than a plan. I worry when people say they have a plan, a plan to what? Does one see the exact to happen that needs that exact plan?
I very much doubt it, life doesn't delve out good problems, only bad and these whack it's here type problems need to be dealt with on the hoof and usually quickly.
And yes we all break the rules all the time and life is a trade off.

I was referring to sailplan really. How to set up the boat in a way that you get where you want to go without compromising safety.

I'm sure most of us do this kind of risk assessment and balancing all the time- whether it's not flying the kite at night, or maybe pushing for more boat speed to ensure arrival at an unlit harbour in daylight. Or the risk inherent in deck work to set up a pole and preventer vs safer sailing once they are in place.

So not a 'plan' that is dreamt up on a sofa months in advance, but decisions made to reflect all of the relevant factors in real time.

 

[ean_p]

Unfortunately that doesn't really work on long downwind passages. Carrying a spinnaker or setting twin heads sails for downwind work is a necessity to keep a boat moving. The MOB situation especially when just a couple on-board is a potential nightmare. Work out a procedure that you both agree to before it ever happens. Ours is MOB button on plotter, beanbags over the side(these are bespoke life safety aids with fluorescent tape and handles full of polystyrene beads and the quickest thing to deploy), drop sails, motor back to MOB point and start search. If you have a large crew a different solution my be possible but with just one person remaining on-board to do everything you have limited options

A good easy remembered way forward for 'shocked' crew..........my only change would be bean bags first then MOB button. The two or three seconds difference is another 20-30 ft the swimmer has to swim ..........