A question for experienced Commercials and Instructors.

[peterb26]

Can anyone advise me about the following please?

- When I get a request to run a course for an RYA school, I know that the RYA require insurance from the school - plus I have my instructors insurance - so I am pretty relaxed that I am covered.

- If its own boat tuition via an RYA school then thats also fine as far as I am aware, since its part of the RYA package of offerings. (However I have recently learned that the boat owner should sign a disclaimer saying that his boat insurance will cover me and his boat should something go wrong).

- When its a "commercial job" of any sort - I am concerned. I presume that the only way is to actually ask to see the Insurance Certificate? Do other commercials do this please?

Only this weekend I got asked to do a couple of days skippering on a Princess by its owner. How can I be absolutely sure that he is all above board? He says his boat is MCA coded. Can I check this online and does this coding carry any insurance pre-requisite as well?

If anyone can throw any light on this I'd be grateful? Also, perhaps a few hints as to what is the best way to be sure all is above board before you start the engines on the customers boat.

Many thanks.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]


- When its a "commercial job" of any sort - I am concerned. I presume that the only way is to actually ask to see the Insurance Certificate? Do other commercials do this please?

Only this weekend I got asked to do a couple of days skippering on a Princess by its owner. How can I be absolutely sure that he is all above board? He says his boat is MCA coded. Can I check this online and does this coding carry any insurance pre-requisite as well?



[/ QUOTE ]

Under what "ticket" were you doing the job? You need to be commercially endorsed to be "clean". Just because you hold a Powerboat Level 2 instructor rating does not give you automatic clearance to skipper vessels for hire/gain.

I was skippering a Sunseeker Predator 58 over part of Cowes week - the vessel was boarded in Ocean Village by the MCA and I was asked for my commercially endorsed certificates - just as well I had them with!

So unless your tickets are commercially endorsed, and as far as I know they are not, you leave yourself open.

As far as checking the credentials of the vessel, you should ask to see the papers which the vessel must carry on-board.

 

[peterb26]

David - of course its commercially endorsed. And to be blunt, the more I think about it, the more I take a fair amount of exception at you suggesting that it isn't.

I am not in the business of doing things illegally at my geriatric time of life. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Howardnp]

The instructor insurance you have is really a "back stop" and shouldn't be relied upon as cover when you're instructing.
The training establishment's insurance should be your insurance when instructing under their umbrella.

Be wary about actually looking at anyone's insurance documents as you aren't an insurance expert, their confirmation, perhaps in writing, that they are adequately covered should cover you.

I presume all this activity happens in the UK because if it doesn't you need to be looking at what Portugal requires.

 

[peterb26]

Yes Howard I was referring to the UK. I will probably only work for one very local school in Portugal, whereas there are lots of them around the Solent.

I posed this same question on a separate forum and received 2 or 3 comprehensive replies from local Schools. These raised a number of interesting points.

Since then I have been in touch with the RYA legal department to see what they could add.

The problems with the whole training situation is that, whilst the Training Establishment's insurance company would not sue an employee of the Training Est., they may well sue a freelance Instructor, and the Heath Lambert instructor policy is the back stop for that.

However its a totally inadequate backstop - since it has a limit of £1M - and if it had to carry the cost of a serious incident, this would be hopeless. (Which is why RYA schools have to have £2M cover in the first place).

A very complex area - and one that relates to training only.

I am in further conversations with Heath Lambert about being a skipper and legally driving a charter boat with my commercial licence!

 

[alant]

"When I get a request to run a course for an RYA school, I know that the RYA require insurance from the school - plus I have my instructors insurance"

(1) Do not assume you are covered.

(2) RYA Insurance (School's & Skipper Indemnity) only provide cover, if they are running a bona fide RYA course. Own boat tuition may not necessarily be a RYA Course.

(3) Who is paying you, boat owner or school (your employer). If former, are you covered?

(4) RYA Skipper Policy, is NOT a stand alone policy. It is ONLY in force if the main school policy is covering you already (SO what is it for then?).

(5) The RYA legal Dept, will not comment or advise on insurance (even RYA sponsored), since policies are covered by FSA!

(6) The Skipper policy, ONLY covers you for negligence - not for simple accidents/damage.

(7) Remember the recent adjudication regarding the Fairline which hit the Needles buoy in 2003 - 85%/15% boat value cost against the skipper & mate, because the insurance company would not pay out. I asked Heath Lambert, if they would pay out if the main insurance refused (technically you are not covered) - still awaiting their underwriters to reach a decision - 2 years later! The proposal form description is different to the policy conditions details - only a technicality perhaps, but do you instinctively trust insurance companies to interperate the details in your favour?

 

[alant]

"David - of course its commercially endorsed. And to be blunt, the more I think about it, the more I take a fair amount of exception at you suggesting that it isn't.

I am not in the business of doing things illegally at my geriatric time of life."

Just a thought, that if you are working ex-UK, are the boats UK registered?
Cos if they are not, your commercial endorsement may not be valid, so neither is any insurance cover!

 

[peterb26]

Alan - I only work for RYA schools. Not for owners directly. I am paid by the schools when I instruct and the only thing I can teach is PBL2.

I need to correct you on point 5. Maybe the RYA have changed their policy? I have only today received a 2 page helpful and comprehensive email from the RYA's Legal Manager explaining the finer points of the RYA School insurance and the way it hangs together with the Heath Lambert Instructor Insurance.

I havent yet had a chance to look at specialist insurance for working as a commercial. Since the vast majority of my (tiny) freelance income will come from RYA school work, the commercial legalities are less important at the moment. But I thank you for your comments.

Incidentally, I wont be doing commercial stuff in Portugal, just a bit of RYA instructing for a school now and again.

 

[alant]

"I have only today received a 2 page helpful and comprehensive email from the RYA's Legal Manager explaining the finer points of the RYA School insurance and the way it hangs together with the Heath Lambert Instructor Insurance."

Glad to hear they are now being helpful.

Perhaps you can fill us in on these 'finer points' etc.
I certainly was not impressed by what the Skipper Indemnity Insurance was all about.

 

[Renegade_Master]

How can I be absolutely sure that he is all above board? He says his boat is MCA coded.


The vessel should display a current coding disc on the rear door or such. Looks a bit like a tax disc on yer car. Plus the owner should be able to produce the actual certificate which should be on the vessel withthe SCV2.

 

[alant]

"So unless your tickets are commercially endorsed, and as far as I know they are not, you leave yourself open."

Thought ALL RYA Instructors (other than Dinghy) are commercially endorsed when issued with an instructor ticket.

PS
Is there a list of RYA instructors available to the public?

 

[Solitaire]

I stand corrected - you do have a commercial endorsment on your Level 2 PB certificate.

 

[peterb26]

Alan - there is no requirement on the PBL2 instructors ticket for "RYA/MCA Sea Survival" and equally there is no need for the ML5 Medical from your GP. Thats why David made the comment above, as he guessed that I didnt have these items or the commercial endorsement.

You must have both of these extra certificates to get even the basic commercial endorsement.

When you think about it - its a bit daft really and I think it would make much more sense if the Instructors Cert needed these as well.

As an instructor you are in sole charge of people on a boat (just like a commercial?) and it makes sense to know that you are physically fit.

Equally if it did all go "belly-up" being able to right the liferaft might be a useful skill too!

The RYA have a list of "instructors and commercials available to work". I know 'cos I'm on it.

I presume you can get it by emailing the RYA, but I havent actually seen the list.

Hope this helps?