LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't bother to call CG at that point, but would call home to say that I won't be home tonight.
A hypothetical situation
- Thread starter snowleopard
- Start date
libellule
Active Member
Snowleopard I think your question splits the sailing community into two. There will be those who have prepared for such an eventuality and have storm boards etc ready for such an occasion, or those who would stuff cushions, bedding, clothes etc into the hole and carry on. There will also be those who are unprepared for such an occurrence and the moment the slightest amount of water begins to enter the boat, will not necessary panic but have concerns about what to do. If the latter were to put out a pan pan, they may get reassuring advice, which will help them to contain the situation and make a safe landfall. I have never read a report by HMCG which criticises anybody for alerting them to a situation which THAT PERSON finds dangerous or outside their experience to deal with.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I voted for routine call, but I would make it accepting that the CG themselves might upgrade it. I would hope that they would only do so in consultation with me, but they would be within their remit to do so.
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
Whilst we have the attentions of some multi hull supporters.....
what are the better methods of staying alive in severe conditions well offshore? e.g. F6-8, 1-2metre waves with a steep front to the waves such as wind over tide.....
Running, lying ahull, heaving-to ? Would you stick out a drogue or would you stand more likelihood of being pooped with lower freeboard?
thanks
S.
what are the better methods of staying alive in severe conditions well offshore? e.g. F6-8, 1-2metre waves with a steep front to the waves such as wind over tide.....
Running, lying ahull, heaving-to ? Would you stick out a drogue or would you stand more likelihood of being pooped with lower freeboard?
thanks
S.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I probably would just carry on. Just foolish pride.
I think the best answer would be to make a call. Any of the above will do.
I have no problem responding to any situation where I hear boat holed, water coming in, smoke, or any situation which may be currently under control but could get worse.
My answer would also depend on which boat I am on. My own boat on my own or with the dog probably no call. With me and my kids, I might call. My wife would make me call.
On a sailing school boat with students. Definitely a call, I can be stupid about my own life but not if I have been paid to take responsibility for others.
Read a few accident or incident reports. Many could have come out better if an early call was made.
I would never criticize anyone who made call in a situation like this.
I think the best answer would be to make a call. Any of the above will do.
I have no problem responding to any situation where I hear boat holed, water coming in, smoke, or any situation which may be currently under control but could get worse.
My answer would also depend on which boat I am on. My own boat on my own or with the dog probably no call. With me and my kids, I might call. My wife would make me call.
On a sailing school boat with students. Definitely a call, I can be stupid about my own life but not if I have been paid to take responsibility for others.
Read a few accident or incident reports. Many could have come out better if an early call was made.
I would never criticize anyone who made call in a situation like this.
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
Great article about Frank Dye in the Guardian recently
"A lifelong principle was that he should never call for help: no one should have to risk their life to save him from trouble he had got into voluntarily. So his radio could only receive and was not able to transmit a distress signal. He refused to take anyone who was married in case they were lost, and both crew had to be able to do everything because their partner might be unconscious or dead. His medical kit included enough morphine to knock out a horse, as there was always a chance he'd need to amputate a limb at sea. Before setting out he trawled over all the relevant information he could find: he read 35 years' of weather reports and calculated the likelihood of gales, researched seasonal sea temperatures and worked out survival times. He worked his way round the boat, thinking how each part could break and the best way to fix it."
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jun/21/sailing-into-hell-two-men-dingy-dangerous-journey
Nor recommending it - very different times!
Reading this and the other thread it seems that one concern is that if you call the CG you surrender any control of your own situation and, no doubt, the same when the LB arrives. Your own judgement that you are advising of a situation and need no help presently seems to count for nothing and before you know it you are being towed in and a statistic. Thankfully I have no personal experience but this seems to be the experience of the (recent) threads. I would want to advise the CG, them trust my judgement that it is an advisory only call, probably agree a reporting schedule (as has been said above) and leave it at that until the CG is notified otherwise or I miss a call-in. If a catastrophe happens between calls then that is my problem and risk. I do not regard the CG as being responsible for eliminating all of my risks. No doubt they can require a very clear conversation where they make clear I am specifically not requesting immediate assistance and record the same as insurance against any later criticism.
"A lifelong principle was that he should never call for help: no one should have to risk their life to save him from trouble he had got into voluntarily. So his radio could only receive and was not able to transmit a distress signal. He refused to take anyone who was married in case they were lost, and both crew had to be able to do everything because their partner might be unconscious or dead. His medical kit included enough morphine to knock out a horse, as there was always a chance he'd need to amputate a limb at sea. Before setting out he trawled over all the relevant information he could find: he read 35 years' of weather reports and calculated the likelihood of gales, researched seasonal sea temperatures and worked out survival times. He worked his way round the boat, thinking how each part could break and the best way to fix it."
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jun/21/sailing-into-hell-two-men-dingy-dangerous-journey
Nor recommending it - very different times!
Reading this and the other thread it seems that one concern is that if you call the CG you surrender any control of your own situation and, no doubt, the same when the LB arrives. Your own judgement that you are advising of a situation and need no help presently seems to count for nothing and before you know it you are being towed in and a statistic. Thankfully I have no personal experience but this seems to be the experience of the (recent) threads. I would want to advise the CG, them trust my judgement that it is an advisory only call, probably agree a reporting schedule (as has been said above) and leave it at that until the CG is notified otherwise or I miss a call-in. If a catastrophe happens between calls then that is my problem and risk. I do not regard the CG as being responsible for eliminating all of my risks. No doubt they can require a very clear conversation where they make clear I am specifically not requesting immediate assistance and record the same as insurance against any later criticism.
Iliade
Well-Known Member
Ask for more sail...
Or request gin in a tall glass without lemon, tonic nor ice. I'd suggest going pink with Angostura bitters. Maybe an umbrella on top to stop the salination of the gin.
(Must remember to try tequila: pour seawater in eye, snort lemon juice, neck tequila.)
Those conditions are about the point at which I consider closing the companionway hatch, but only if the quarter berths are getting wet.
That said, I once had a flighty boat that would jump off wave tops etc. I found that hoisting ever smaller sails and, in extremis, trailing warps made for a less chaotic ride, but longer passage times...
(A girlfriend even broke her jaw on the compression strut, having been bounced out of the forepeak berth... That didn't do wonders for domestic harmony)
prv
Well-Known Member
I think there's an important difference between (A) being swept along by the professionals and allowing yourself to be rescued when you wouldn't have asked for it, and (B) being forcibly boarded and taken in tow, or to another vessel, against your clearly-expressed will.
I'm sure (A) happens all the time - it's happened to me in the past, when I put out a call for another vessel willing to give me a tow and ended up behind the lifeboat. I didn't need to be rescued, and from this comfy chair in my living room I think I probably should have handled the situation better and made clearer that I wasn't really in any danger, but at the time I was quite willing to take the tow-rope being thrown to me by the man in the big orange boat.
I don't think (B) is a serious problem at sea, though the shoreside police have caused trouble with their heavyhanded ignorance on occasion. The RNLI crews I think are well aware that they don't have any authority to rescue people against their will. I don't know the legal definition, but boarding a vessel or attempting to take it in tow against the wishes of its master, unless you are a police/customs/military vessel, seems perilously close to piracy. Manhandling the crew is probably assault.
As I understand it, the only way a vessel can be legally rescued/towed against her master's orders is if the MCA have invoked a procedure known as SOSREP, for Secretary Of State's Representative. This involves getting a certain senior official out of bed to take personal command of the situation, and is something intended for drifting oil tankers, not yachts. In the highly unlikely event of someone trying to involuntarily rescue me, I might be inclined to ask the Coastguard (on 16, where everyone can hear) whether SOSREP had been invoked.
Pete
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Not in my case. The beam has no role in the structural integrity of the boat and we could sail quite happily without it, indeed we replaced it with a rope to hold the front edge of the trampoline once I had removed the beam and parched the holes. The only danger to the boat was that the dislodging of the roots of the beam left holes through which water could get into the bow tanks.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
6-8 in a decent sized cat is uncomfortable, not dangerous. My reaction depends entirely on which direction I wanted to go. On the downwind leg to the Caribbean I had 35 knots of true wind over the stern. After we overtook the wave in front and took green water over the top we tucked in a couple of reefs and carried on, averaging 10 knots. Returning to the UK from the Azores we had F6+ on the nose so we ran both engines slow ahead and carried on at 1-2 kts SOG for 48 hours till it blew itself out. Lying ahull works, I've done it in a Tri in those conditions but unwise when the seas get really big. In stronger winds you can run under bare poles but a multi can still build up a lot of speed; I've seen 9 knots under mast alone (big mast mind you). Trailing warps probably wouldn't slow you down enough and I don't carry a drogue. I carry a para anchor but have never used it and doubt it would work for me as my boat tends to sail around an ordinary anchor.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
It has happened to me many years ago on the NE coast. A race down the coast from Whitby petered out from light winds and I was the only yacht left, all others had retired, unknown to me - there was no time limit set. We were halfway to Scarborough as dusk fell and the tide turned against us I anchored and we were sat below with refreshments when suddenly a searchlight lightened our scene and a booming voice brought us on deck ... the Whitby lifeboat had been called out by the race officer.
My goodness, those guys, bless 'em, were persistent. Refusing a line (many times) I eventually agreed to start the engine and head back to Whitby while the lifeboat kept station all the way. We later featured in the records as having been "escorted into harbour". But the pressure to follow the advice of a lifeboat coxswain is indeed difficult to refuse and in my case to force them to travel so slowly back to harbour at my pace was embarrassing. I didn't need them, didn't call them, didn't want them to accompany me and wouldn't accept a tow but suppose they couldn't leave the subject of their search having located me.
So, based on how such things can escalate out of control I would normally vote to not report such a situation.
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alant
Well-Known Member
OP said "You are 10 miles to leeward of the nearest safe all-tide harbour", which I take to mean the harbour is to windward.
Nicholas123
N/A
So you thought you'd find another way of getting your own back at them.......
prv
Well-Known Member
Right, but Searush's question is a reasonable one in the hypothetical scenario. The nearest harbour may be ten miles to windward, but if there's another twenty-five miles away on a broad-reaching course, that may well be preferable. It's good not to fixate on one specific ending to the game.
Pete
Resolution
Well-Known Member
The value of these sort of threads is that they make us stop and think through carefully what to do in certain circumstances, so that if an emergency arises we can react better.
Last year while motor sailing off Holland the deep seal on my prop shaft started to break up. We immediately stopped the engine and sadly turned round to sail back 50 miles to a port, using the engine only for the last mile or so. If the seal had disintegrated there was a real risk of a sinking situation, though probably not too fast.
We never even thought of calling the Dutch coastguard. Having read this thread I would certainly now put out a precautionary, advisory call to them if the same situation arose again. At the very least the time it would save if the situation became an emergency might be the difference between the yacht sinking or still being afloat.
Last year while motor sailing off Holland the deep seal on my prop shaft started to break up. We immediately stopped the engine and sadly turned round to sail back 50 miles to a port, using the engine only for the last mile or so. If the seal had disintegrated there was a real risk of a sinking situation, though probably not too fast.
We never even thought of calling the Dutch coastguard. Having read this thread I would certainly now put out a precautionary, advisory call to them if the same situation arose again. At the very least the time it would save if the situation became an emergency might be the difference between the yacht sinking or still being afloat.
FishyInverness
Well-Known Member
I'm a wee bit confused, I answered Pan-Pan (Ok, I would never be in this situation, I don't, as yet, sail - I am a water user but only small craft, I guess I could be in a kayak at sea with a split in my paddle that might not last the distance perhaps...) due to the description of Pan-Pan on my VHF course, I even then went and looked up Pan-Pan on Wikipedia to see if I was wrong....but it seems the definition would exactly fit this situation:
"Three calls of pan-pan in radiotelephone communications,[1][2][3] is used to signify that there is an urgency on board a boat, ship, aircraft, or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself.[4] This is referred to as a state of urgency. This is distinct from a Mayday call, which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself.[5] Thus "pan-pan" informs potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that a safety problem exists whereas "Mayday" will call upon them to drop all other activities and immediately initiate a rescue attempt."
There's an urgency, alert rescuers just in case, but don't drop everything for a rescue...
It seems that the intended meaning of panpan has become skewed by an over-eagerness on the part of coastguard to want to effect a rescue where one isn't necessarily needed...
Or am i wrong?
"Three calls of pan-pan in radiotelephone communications,[1][2][3] is used to signify that there is an urgency on board a boat, ship, aircraft, or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself.[4] This is referred to as a state of urgency. This is distinct from a Mayday call, which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself.[5] Thus "pan-pan" informs potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that a safety problem exists whereas "Mayday" will call upon them to drop all other activities and immediately initiate a rescue attempt."
There's an urgency, alert rescuers just in case, but don't drop everything for a rescue...
It seems that the intended meaning of panpan has become skewed by an over-eagerness on the part of coastguard to want to effect a rescue where one isn't necessarily needed...
Or am i wrong?
NormanS
Well-Known Member
From my own recent experience, there is no way that I would contact the CG in a non-urgent case.
We were anchored in a sheltered bay in an uninhabited island, off the west of the Hebrides. It was a beautiful, calm and warm sunny day. (It does happen). Intending to get underway, I checked the engine, and found that it was completely unusable. (That's another story).
As I said, there wasn't a breath of wind. I called the CG, to ask if they had any local contacts who would be willing to give a tow to the village, at the head of a sealoch, a dozen miles away, where I might be able to get some help with the engine.
"Stand by", they said. Shortly after, they came back to me saying, "We've asked ------ Lifeboat to launch, and come to your assistance. They should be with you in 40 minutes". I said that I certainly didn't need, or want the Lifeboat, but they were adamant. Minutes later, a nice little breeze got up, so we lifted the anchor, and sailed towards the sealoch. I told the CG what we were doing, and asked them to re-call the LB, but they said it would keep coming, and escort us.
We were now having a good sail, and by the time the lifeboat caught up with us, we were entering the sealoch. They could see that we were fine, and asked us to call the CG to say that we were happy for the lifeboat to be released. The lifeboat returned to base, and we sailed on, and anchored off the village.
While I don't want to sound ungrateful, in these circumstances, calling out the lifeboat and crew, was way over the top.
As I say, I wouldn't get in touch with the CG, unless it was for something serious. Maybe their action has had unintended consequencies.
We were anchored in a sheltered bay in an uninhabited island, off the west of the Hebrides. It was a beautiful, calm and warm sunny day. (It does happen). Intending to get underway, I checked the engine, and found that it was completely unusable. (That's another story).
As I said, there wasn't a breath of wind. I called the CG, to ask if they had any local contacts who would be willing to give a tow to the village, at the head of a sealoch, a dozen miles away, where I might be able to get some help with the engine.
"Stand by", they said. Shortly after, they came back to me saying, "We've asked ------ Lifeboat to launch, and come to your assistance. They should be with you in 40 minutes". I said that I certainly didn't need, or want the Lifeboat, but they were adamant. Minutes later, a nice little breeze got up, so we lifted the anchor, and sailed towards the sealoch. I told the CG what we were doing, and asked them to re-call the LB, but they said it would keep coming, and escort us.
We were now having a good sail, and by the time the lifeboat caught up with us, we were entering the sealoch. They could see that we were fine, and asked us to call the CG to say that we were happy for the lifeboat to be released. The lifeboat returned to base, and we sailed on, and anchored off the village.
While I don't want to sound ungrateful, in these circumstances, calling out the lifeboat and crew, was way over the top.
As I say, I wouldn't get in touch with the CG, unless it was for something serious. Maybe their action has had unintended consequencies.
FishyInverness
Well-Known Member
The more cynically minded would perhaps suggest these situations are allowed to occur so that another "rescue" can be added to the RNLI statistics in order to justify funding pleas....
onesea
Well-Known Member
A friend of mine had similar situation but engine would not start due to fuel issues, she had to change a filter and it was a bit choppy. One of the crew phoned home and mentioned situation, mother got worried phoned coastguard.
In the end I think they compromised on a calling schedule when in frustration she replied on the radio "its blowing F5-6 I am on a sailing boat I do not need a F**ing lifeboat!". She admits it might not of been her most diplomatic move
SimonFa
Well-Known Member
Given our litigious society I don't blame the CG and RNLI from responding when they here of a yacht with the outside chance of a major problem.
"They told the CG and nothing happened and then they drowned" isn't a headline that the average CG wants to read in the Daily Mail.
So given that I suspect the CG and RNLI assumes that everyone who calls is at best a beginner until proven otherwise and respond appropriately. Personally if I warn them of a problem like this and they decide to escalate it I won't object, but I wouldn't make it a pan pan despite what Wikipedia says.
"They told the CG and nothing happened and then they drowned" isn't a headline that the average CG wants to read in the Daily Mail.
So given that I suspect the CG and RNLI assumes that everyone who calls is at best a beginner until proven otherwise and respond appropriately. Personally if I warn them of a problem like this and they decide to escalate it I won't object, but I wouldn't make it a pan pan despite what Wikipedia says.
