A fun bluewater boat around 40'?
- Thread starter papaver19
- Start date
Major_Clanger
Well-known member
I asked because I'm intrigued that Gweem seems to think that production boats and bluewater boats cannot be the same thing (unless I'm missing his point?). I'd completely disagree with that premise.
Anyway, I'm sticking with my original suggestion of a Bowman 40. I've crossed the Atlantic in both directions with one and think they're excellent boats. Not super exciting for sure, but handsome, safe and a half-decent mile muncher. I can't think of many boats in that size range that I'd rather be in. A rival 38 perhaps but only because I think the stern's prettier.
papaver19
Member
I am starting to agree with you, Sir. My vanity would like a Rustler 42 - fun and capable - and while I could (just) afford that, I'm becoming less convinced that it offers that much over the Bowman 40, other than the ego massage. The Bowman certainly impacts the cruising kitty a good deal less, and gives me carte blanche to throw money at it at will. I'm actually just looking at flights back to the UK to go and see one (or two), so I think we have a winner.
Major_Clanger
Well-known member
How exciting for you! They really are good boats, one of Chuck Paine's best and not nearly as stolid as might be imagined. My time in one didn't involve any properly bad weather, but it was bad enough to know how the boat would behave - a boat that made me feel as if she was my friend "come on, we're all in it together and I can handle whatever's thrown at me". A very confidence inspiring design that'll stand-on long after you've been tucking reefs in on many other boats.
Tranona
Well-known member
You are right I should have qualified it by something like "in any numbers". However there have been many boats designed and built specifically aimed at long distance cruising mostly custom or semi custom that do not follow the style of earlier boats that were used in that way. Some were designed by groups of experienced users, some by influential individuals and few followed the lead of earlier designs. That is the nature of developments and why the boats used today bear very little resemblance to boats like mine which were highly desirable in their day.
One interesting trend is designs that start from what is current in volume production and then seek to remedy what are seen as the shortcomings. The Kraken and Adventure 40 referred to earlier are examples. Another change is a decline in influence of the previously dominant Anglo Saxon design principles and the growth in particular of the French approach in both design and construction.
In reality though these developments only affect a small proportion of buyers as most who want to go off ocean sailing cannot afford a new purpose built boat so are limited to what others bought new in the past. The front runner here (the Bowman 40) is a good example. Out of date (or not state of the art) when it was first designed and had a short production run that finished over 20 years ago. Now available at a fraction of its earlier value perhaps because those who have more money prefer a more modern design. A bonus of course for anybody happy with the earlier design - assuming the condition is good.
Sea Change
Well-known member
It's pretty obvious, but I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread- the overwhelming majority of new boats are destined for charter, or charter-esque private, use. And so that's what ends up on the used market. And it's a very different set of requirements to a typical budget conscious long term liveaboard.
It's similar with cars in some ways. As a perennial purchaser of used cars, I'm only ever interested in running costs and reliability. But new cars are sold on aesthetics, handling, and gizmos. You won't catch a TV advert for a new BMW extolling the virtues of a new design of brake caliper that makes it easier to change the pads
.
It's similar with cars in some ways. As a perennial purchaser of used cars, I'm only ever interested in running costs and reliability. But new cars are sold on aesthetics, handling, and gizmos. You won't catch a TV advert for a new BMW extolling the virtues of a new design of brake caliper that makes it easier to change the pads
.
Goldie
Well-known member
‘Out of date’ (your comment earlier in your last post)? I prefer ‘timeless’ and built for the job and not for the mass -primarily charter or ‘weekending’ - market.
Regarding price, I must be one of those you’re referring to. Given a budget for a larger and new AWB, I still chose, and keep, the Bowman. You and I obviously like very different types of boat and yes, I’ve sailed most brands of AWB; but also some large custom/semi custom yachts plus others such as Rassys, Najads, Contessas, Nicholsons, Moodys, Contests etc etc. I make my choice based on MY experiences as no doubt you make yours. I accept though that there’s a choice and don’t publicly decry those boats that suit others, even though I wouldn’t want to own one.
You have your preferences, I have mine - and I’m sure I’m not alone. Long may there be a choice
.
Roberto
Well-known member
As of boats used for ocean cruising, a few months ago I queried the Ocean Cruising Club data base for the different monohull boatyards, the results were essentially these below, listed by boatyard (irrespective of size).
There were other mono models in smaller numbers, and many catamarans.
The OCC has about 3500 members, some are couples, some aren't boat owners, etc etc, it might give an indication of boats being used by owners of UK/Northern Europe + Australia/SZA/NZL etc; France would be different.
Allures 8
Alubat (Ovni, Cigale) 33
Amel 50
Bavaria 25
Beneteau 68
Boreal 13
Bowman 20
Catalina 14
Contessa 10
Contest 24
Dufour 16
Garcia 8
Grand Soleil 10
HR 106
Hanse 12
Hinkley 19
Hylas 24
Island Packet 32
J-boats 23
Jeanneau 68
Moody 49
Najad 29
Nicolson 24
Oyster 60
Swan 23
Tayana 20
Westerly 34
X-yachts 14
There were other mono models in smaller numbers, and many catamarans.
The OCC has about 3500 members, some are couples, some aren't boat owners, etc etc, it might give an indication of boats being used by owners of UK/Northern Europe + Australia/SZA/NZL etc; France would be different.
Allures 8
Alubat (Ovni, Cigale) 33
Amel 50
Bavaria 25
Beneteau 68
Boreal 13
Bowman 20
Catalina 14
Contessa 10
Contest 24
Dufour 16
Garcia 8
Grand Soleil 10
HR 106
Hanse 12
Hinkley 19
Hylas 24
Island Packet 32
J-boats 23
Jeanneau 68
Moody 49
Najad 29
Nicolson 24
Oyster 60
Swan 23
Tayana 20
Westerly 34
X-yachts 14
Major_Clanger
Well-known member
IMO at least, that list is a little misleading as it shows what people use versus what they might like to use. The two largest shares are Beneteau and Jeanneau. Both absolutely fine, but not bluewater cruisers in the real sense of the word. Perhaps it's a salient reminder that given the ability, we can put to sea in whatever we like and sail to ours and the boat's ability?
Roberto
Well-known member
HR has a higher number than both of them, Oyster comes very near, not exactly proletarian boats
Indeed it's what (a certain category of people) are using, what their secret wishes are I do not know. I am personally happy with my boat and should I win the lottery I would definitely build (and probably design) a one-off, I would not buy any of the list.
Tranona
Well-known member
The last thing I am is decrying what you refer to a "timeless" nor the reasons why people choose them - after all I own a Golden Hind, my second Griffiths designed boat (and both built by the same person in 60s/70s) I am just trying to explain how boats have changed over the years and the reasons why - which are primarily the reason you bought your boat - personal choice and changing expectations.‘Out of date’ (your comment earlier in your last post)? I prefer ‘timeless’ and built for the job and not for the mass -primarily charter or ‘weekending’ - market.
Regarding price, I must be one of those you’re referring to. Given a budget for a larger and new AWB, I still chose, and keep, the Bowman. You and I obviously like very different types of boat and yes, I’ve sailed most brands of AWB; but also some large custom/semi custom yachts plus others such as Rassys, Najads, Contessas, Nicholsons, Moodys, Contests etc etc. I make my choice based on MY experiences as no doubt you make yours. I accept though that there’s a choice and don’t publicly decry those boats that suit others, even though I wouldn’t want to own one.
You have your preferences, I have mine - and I’m sure I’m not alone. Long may there be a choice
This is not a value judgement about different styles of boats but a reflection on reality. People do buy a wide range of boats both new and used and make successful bluewater passages and it is inevitable as supply of "timeless" boats is both limited and declining. If boats like yours and mine really were so superior in the eyes of potential new boat buyers they would still be built. I don't think it is necessarily cost either as some say. Niche semi custom boats particularly in this size have been squeezed by the massive improvement in mass production boats and the general trend for larger boats. So yesterday's12m norm is now 13 or 14m just as my 31' died a death overnight when wider beam 33-35' boats came on the market.
I hope the OP does find a Bowman as it is one of the few boats that does meet his main criteria - although if it were me I would prefer the Amber 40 which I had hoped to buy at one point when it was on the market, but at the time my longevity was uncertain. Hindsight says I should have taken the risk. On the upside I did get 6 years of joy out of my new Bavaria, but of course in a different pattern of use.
Tranona
Well-known member
They are all used by "bluewater" sailors therefore they are all "bluewater" boats. Simply cannot understand this desire to create a limited category just because it conforms to your preferences. It does not matter what they might prefer. You can only buy what is available for the budget you have and clearly large numbers in this select group choose to invest their money in boats you declare a NOT bluewater boat. I guess many would use the Groucho Marx response to being excluded from your select group.
Major_Clanger
Well-known member
I understand the point and don't necessarily disagree, but surely it's a matter of horses for courses? If I raced an Austin Allegro it wouldn't make it a racing car, except in name. I spent a while in the 90s taking new Beneteaus across to Tortola for The Moorings. We got them across okay but I wouldn't have described them as bluewater cruisers in any sense of the word. That hadn't nothing to do with their price, just what they were designed to be good at.
Tranona
Well-known member
But people did buy them and similar boats to go "bluewater" cruising and surely it is what you do with them that defines what they are called. Where are the boundaries if you want to define a subset? geem often uses the OCC membership as the "people who know" and on the list we have roughly 170 members who have chosen production boats from the 4 main European builders plus a whole load of others that do not meet with the characteristics that are epitomised by the Bowman. By your measure of horse for courses they all qualify as they have all done it!
BTW over 1/3 of the builders listed are no longer in business most of whom would have built boats of the type that would meet your exclusive definition.
papaver19
Member
Amber looks like a lovely boat, but the chances of finding one on any sensible timescale are essentially zero. I am aware of the passing of time (I am 56) and want to get off down the track before Father Time calls, er, time.
Swapping to more capable boat now is a year's delay & a winter's work refitting, but that's completely acceptable given the benefits. Kicking my heels for years waiting for the perfect boat to swim into view is madness. Tempus fugit!
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Tranona
Well-known member
Yes, only 3 made and the blue one changed hands only recently. I know it does not fit the accepted type, but do have a look at the Bavaria Vision (mid 2000s) either the 40 or better the 44. Very different from the normal Bavaria - lead keel, higher ballast ratio bigger rig and very usable interior. Not too many about but well within your budget . A bit of a hidden secret BAVARIA 40 VISION - sailboatdata
geem
Well-known member
Agreed. It's in the extreme end of sailing when it's howling that you want a boat that doesn't surf readily. Any boat can sail in the easy stuff
geem
Well-known member
Rubbish. I posted an article that is not just my opinion. It has opinion of others far more qualified and with more experience than me. The OP agrees with it and so do I. See post #93
papaver19
Member
Blue Seas
Member
Now that the type of boat seems to be reasonably settled upon (excellent choice though there are obvious alternatives) can I chip in with my thoughts.
I think that the term 'Blue Water' boat is in itself a misnomer. Most long distance folk would I think agree that the 'Blue' bit is normally the easiest, and that the 'Brown' bits at either end (if they exist) are the hard miles.
So, in theory, any boat capable of doing the Brown bits in heavy weather, white water, overfalls etc. should be more than capable of doing the downwind blue bits in-between.
This is where I agree with the posters who say (in terms) that a 'comfortable ride' is paramount.
Most crews, most skippers, and virtually all boats are capable of 'hanging on' for a gentle downwind, warm weather sleigh ride. Similarly, most boats, skippers and crews are capable of toughing it out against the wind for 48/72 hours to get off the continental shelf, navigate outbound rivers, estuaries, shipping lanes etc to reach 'Blue'.
But it is what matters at the other end that counts, three weeks of chilled downwind sailing with 5pm 'sundowners' is not great preparation for an unexpected bad weather entry to the inbound continental shelf, tidal calculations in 6m tides having left a 0.5m tide area, sandbanks and bars etc.
A pure 'Blue water' boat would be a poor boat just as a 'Blue water' crew would be a poor crew. A blue water boat should be a capable shitty weather brown water boat first, then be a gentle blue water boat to give its crew some relief, then be well ready to look after its crew when back in the brown water, lee shore, hailstone conditions that the crew were not expecting.
A blue water boat has to be a capable brown water boat first. Think AZAB for example - which part of the journey is the bit when you most need the boat to look after you?
In my humble opinion.
I think that the term 'Blue Water' boat is in itself a misnomer. Most long distance folk would I think agree that the 'Blue' bit is normally the easiest, and that the 'Brown' bits at either end (if they exist) are the hard miles.
So, in theory, any boat capable of doing the Brown bits in heavy weather, white water, overfalls etc. should be more than capable of doing the downwind blue bits in-between.
This is where I agree with the posters who say (in terms) that a 'comfortable ride' is paramount.
Most crews, most skippers, and virtually all boats are capable of 'hanging on' for a gentle downwind, warm weather sleigh ride. Similarly, most boats, skippers and crews are capable of toughing it out against the wind for 48/72 hours to get off the continental shelf, navigate outbound rivers, estuaries, shipping lanes etc to reach 'Blue'.
But it is what matters at the other end that counts, three weeks of chilled downwind sailing with 5pm 'sundowners' is not great preparation for an unexpected bad weather entry to the inbound continental shelf, tidal calculations in 6m tides having left a 0.5m tide area, sandbanks and bars etc.
A pure 'Blue water' boat would be a poor boat just as a 'Blue water' crew would be a poor crew. A blue water boat should be a capable shitty weather brown water boat first, then be a gentle blue water boat to give its crew some relief, then be well ready to look after its crew when back in the brown water, lee shore, hailstone conditions that the crew were not expecting.
A blue water boat has to be a capable brown water boat first. Think AZAB for example - which part of the journey is the bit when you most need the boat to look after you?
In my humble opinion.
