Sticky Fingers
Well-known member
Mouldy Auld Boat. A pejorative term for something old and unloved by all except perhaps for its current owner.
And for completeness, AWB is Average White Boat.
A fall in boat prices on horizon?
- Thread starter ashtead
- Start date
And for completeness, AWB is Average White Boat.
Tranona
Well-known member
I think you will find that the EU have kept the pre 1997 exemption for boats in the EU (including UK) at the qualifying date in 1998 or built in the EEA. So no problem with re-certifying older boats that meet that criterion. This may well also now be the case in the UK, given that the idea of a UKCA has been dropped. However the rules as originally written post Brexit removed that exemption while accepting CE provided all the original documentation was available. A confusing situation, and not sure there is any clarification available yet.
lustyd
Well-known member
Yes I think that for the foreseeable future it's best to ask each time what the current rules are for the boat in question. Add to that EU countries sometimes doing things differently at the implementation end too. Whether it's the law or not can be irrelevant if you have to endure a year of pain to import a boat and deal with local officials!
benjenbav
Well-known member
These articles are splendid - as is the restored Concerto.
Concerto
Well-known member
Thankfully everyone is different. Some are time poor but money rich, others are money poor with plenty of free time. In my case I was money rich and time rich.
dgadee
Well-known member
And skill rich. Lots of people are not.
B27
Well-known member
Some 'previous owners' seem to have the time, money and 'aptitude' to do things to boats which later owners/buyers despair of.
jac
Well-known member
Amen to that
Zagato
Well-known member
Just sold a desirable little open boat within a day of advertising for the asking of 6.5k! I bought it this time last year and have made 1K on it. If you buy really nice boats that are different or desirable then you will always come out well. It's not just little boats. I have always done the same with little yachts. Buy well, present them nicely and people will fall in love with them before they pick up the phone...
Cape Cutter or Norfolk Gypsy next... after my old SAAB 96 has been fully restored, it goes off for paint next week, concourse level restoration
Cape Cutter or Norfolk Gypsy next... after my old SAAB 96 has been fully restored, it goes off for paint next week, concourse level restoration
dgadee
Well-known member
When viewing boats I was always surprised by how filthy many of them were. Old life jackets, tatty books, dirty cookers. Not to mention "good sails" covered in pin holes that your finger would go through.
Frogmogman
Well-known member
Thanks for this detail. I was unaware of the exemption, which makes a big difference.
j24jam
Active member
Is this published anywhere official?
JamesL1969
New member
As a broker I am always looking for market hints and tips and unsurprisingly see a lot of differences of opinion. This is only to be expected given the wide range of boats out there.
But for what it is worth, here are a couple of points to consider:
Would love to know your thoughts on this
But for what it is worth, here are a couple of points to consider:
Supply is still not back to what it was in 2019 (about half,although has improved from the beginning of 2023)
All the Big boys, Hanse, Dufour etc have left the smaller boat market in favour of the more lucrative 50 ft plus /£ million plus market and this has left a big void in 30 something foot quality boats.
So, whilst the economy may be a bit wobbly, I am quite confident for the market for 2024 (Winter 2023 expected to be quiet as always)Would love to know your thoughts on this
matt1
Well-known member
Always good to get an industry insider view (so to speak) so thanks, but interested why you say builders have deserted the smaller market. Beneteau, Hanse and Dufour all have a 30’ in their current ranges even if their focus is more on larger
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Why are you confident about 2024? Do you think more people will be buying +50’, £million boats in the UK? Or that more smaller boats will come to market? Do you think smaller boat prices will fall because the number of second hand boats for sale will increase?
I don't know what will happen. My gut feeling is that new boat prices are unaffordable for the majority of buyers, hence second hand market prices will remain robust for good quality secondhand boats and fall for secondhand boats that are not selling. I think the market has limited buyers.
Cost of living in UK remains challenging and some think inflation will remain high for a while yet. Aspirations have been put on hold as disposable income and savings get consumed to manage inflation. UK sailing overheads have increased.
That is my view based on anecdotal analysis. Hence curious why your optimistic for 2024, which is less than 3 months away.
Bobc
Well-known member
New boat waiting lists are shrinking.
Nearly new boat actual selling prices are about 10% down, and there are not queues of people fighting for them any more.
It's playing out similar to the housing market.
MY gut feel is that next year will be a bit ugly.
Nearly new boat actual selling prices are about 10% down, and there are not queues of people fighting for them any more.
It's playing out similar to the housing market.
MY gut feel is that next year will be a bit ugly.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
I looked at 2 power catamarans for sale in Greece back in February. Both are still for sale. One was in poor enough condition and not well presented. The other was in very good condition, well presented and the price seemed in line with similar boats being advertised - the cabin configuration was not what I wanted. The owner of the second boat called me in early August. He said he had a number of viewings but no offers and asked me if I'd found some major fault or problem when I viewed. I told him I liked what I saw and explained my reason for not making an offer. He has reduced the price by around 20% since I viewed the boat but it's still on the market. I know power cats are not everyone's cup of tea but - - -.
Concerto
Well-known member
There will still be a market for expensive new boats as there is a continual number of people reaching retirement age with substantial pension pots. If they opt for an annuity, they have to take 25% in cash. Alternatively they can draw down on their pension pot as required. For these people, they are almost immune to high interest rates and cost of living problems. In a way, they have never had it so good with a substantial guaranteed income and not having to work. This section of the new boat buyers market has always been the same and companies like Oyster were built by it.
The number of buyers for new craft that are still working is a smaller market as it has to be funded by either a large income or receiving a substantial amount of money from being the beneficiary of a will, probably from their parents who have passed.
For the majority of people with a reasonable income, but with a substantial mortgage, yes they will feel the pinch of higher interest rates and cost of living rises. This will certainly affect the secondhand market by either not changing their boat or possibly swallowing the anchor. Both of these will affect secondhand prices.
The influx of boats due to Brexit and boats returning from far afield due to Covid has caused a shortage of marina berths in the South, causing the prices to rise as there have been few new marinas in the past couple of decades. The problem is compounded by new boats getting bigger, but many of the berths are geared to boat sizes of several decades ago. I cannot see berthing costs dropping, although some people are transfering from a marina to a mooring to save money to continue sailing.
So there will be changes in the market in 2024, but not everyone is affected in the same way in the current economic climate.
jac
Well-known member
I'm going to disagree in part.
Firstly under pension freedom, there is no requirement to do anything. One can convert the entire sum into an annuity if one so desires so you can't guarantee a large number of large lump sums.
Then add in the fact that every year that goes by, the number of people with decent sums in final salary schemes will reduce. Most of them are closed to new entrants or have changed to average career salary or capped the salary increase applied to the pension - all resulting in todays pensioners not having the same generous schemes as those that retired 5-10 years ago and may have been unaffected / less affected by changes to final salary schemes.
Then add in falls in house prices, reducing the windfalls from inheritance or downsizing and the increasing demands being placed on the bank of mum and dad as student finances cost more, deposits / mortgages cost more and i can see a substantial change coming down the track.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
As someone who is currently in the market for a boat, probably early next year - I have numerous searches going on all online portals. While I can't comment on actual achieved sale prices, I get daily e-mails where the asking prices have been reduced, sometimes quite considerably, and there are more and more boats coming on to the market - it was around 3-5 boats per day, now it is often over 10.
My searches are in the €100K to €200K, 40-45ft range.
I am resident in the EU so unfortunately UK boats are of no interest due to the VAT I would have to pay on top of the purchase price - so I've not been paying much attention to UK prices.
My observations is that it is older more traditional boats, and boats in the more far-flung places that are sinking the fastest, with some price drops as high as €30-€40k, sometimes overtaken by boats owned by businesses - perhaps they have replacements on order and want to cut their losses to dispose of existing boats. Who knows, but it is a buyers market IMO.
The around 40ft AWBs (apart from charter disposals) seem to be holding up reasonably well, with small price drops primarily aimed at triggering notifications on peoples online searches - I've opened many an add to realise it's a boat I've already seen before but with a few thousand knocked off.
These are just my anecdotal observations and I don't claim to be a market expert - best to ask the brokers if you want a current market assessment.
My searches are in the €100K to €200K, 40-45ft range.
I am resident in the EU so unfortunately UK boats are of no interest due to the VAT I would have to pay on top of the purchase price - so I've not been paying much attention to UK prices.
My observations is that it is older more traditional boats, and boats in the more far-flung places that are sinking the fastest, with some price drops as high as €30-€40k, sometimes overtaken by boats owned by businesses - perhaps they have replacements on order and want to cut their losses to dispose of existing boats. Who knows, but it is a buyers market IMO.
The around 40ft AWBs (apart from charter disposals) seem to be holding up reasonably well, with small price drops primarily aimed at triggering notifications on peoples online searches - I've opened many an add to realise it's a boat I've already seen before but with a few thousand knocked off.
These are just my anecdotal observations and I don't claim to be a market expert - best to ask the brokers if you want a current market assessment.