A fall in boat prices on horizon?

[benjenbav]

As someone who is currently in the market for a boat, probably early next year - I have numerous searches going on all online portals. While I can't comment on actual achieved sale prices, I get daily e-mails where the asking prices have been reduced, sometimes quite considerably, and there are more and more boats coming on to the market - it was around 3-5 boats per day, now it is often over 10.

My searches are in the €100K to €200K, 40-45ft range.

I am resident in the EU so unfortunately UK boats are of no interest due to the VAT I would have to pay on top of the purchase price - so I've not been paying much attention to UK prices.

My observations is that it is older more traditional boats, and boats in the more far-flung places that are sinking the fastest, with some price drops as high as €30-€40k, sometimes overtaken by boats owned by businesses - perhaps they have replacements on order and want to cut their losses to dispose of existing boats. Who knows, but it is a buyers market IMO.

The around 40ft AWBs (apart from charter disposals) seem to be holding up reasonably well, with small price drops primarily aimed at triggering notifications on peoples online searches - I've opened many an add to realise it's a boat I've already seen before but with a few thousand knocked off.

These are just my anecdotal observations and I don't claim to be a market expert - best to ask the brokers if you want a current market assessment.

Vague apologies for thread drift, but do you find any of the sites work well?

I’m also looking online and the software seems universally poor.

In my experience, YachtWorld, for example, almost doesn’t work at all on a mobile device if you have the temerity to set a number of filters.

I’m finding that you have to be quite persistent. I guess it’s almost like the good old days of making an appointment to see a boat on the hard 250 miles away, arriving to find the broker’s doing something else and the yard’s got no ladder.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Vague apologies for thread drift, but do you find any of the sites work well?

I’m also looking online and the software seems universally poor.

In my experience, YachtWorld, for example, almost doesn’t work at all on a mobile device if you have the temerity to set a number of filters.

I’m finding that you have to be quite persistent. I guess it’s almost like the good old days of making an appointment to see a boat on the hard 250 miles away, arriving to find the broker’s doing something else and the yard’s got no ladder.

In general they are pretty awful, a lot of wading through irrelevant boats.

3 points really stick out.

1. Generally very difficult to specify countries or regions of interest.
2. Boat length is very hit and miss ... with boats popping up that are often larger than required.
3. VAT paid/not paid is not available as a filter - you always need to look in the advert.

Otherwise it's just wading through the chaff to find the boats of interest.

... and don't get me started on the quality of some of the adverts.

 

[benjenbav]

In general they are pretty awful, a lot of wading through irrelevant boats.

3 points really stick out.

1. Generally very difficult to specify countries or regions of interest.
2. Boat length is very hit and miss ... with boats popping up that are often larger than required.
3. VAT paid/not paid is not available as a filter - you always need to look in the advert.

Otherwise it's just wading through the chaff to find the boats of interest.

... and don't get me started on the quality of some of the adverts.

I recognise most of those comments. But, to be fair, some adverts are also pretty good with useful details. I like info such as “all standing rigging replaced with discontinuous stainless steel rigging in July 2021”. Less so, comments such as “rigging may be more than 10 years old”

 

[lustyd]

I’ve found the sites fine, the problem has been the lack of suitable boats. The filters are a faff but you get used to the routine of it. We just bought one within a week of it going on the market though and now have to sell the current boat asap. We hadn’t put ours on the market as we’d not seen a suitable replacement for two years. Hard to go back once you’ve had an owners layout with huge beds and cockpit lockers thankfully just the right thing popped up in the end and we pounced.

 

[Irish Rover]

I get emails regularly from Sunsail/Leopard brokerage and, almost without exception, all emails over the last 4/5 months have been with price reductions
BIG PRICE CUTS - 4x monohulls in Procida, Italy!

 

[JamesL1969]

Always good to get an industry insider view (so to speak) so thanks, but interested why you say builders have deserted the smaller market. Beneteau, Hanse and Dufour all have a 30’ in their current ranges even if their focus is more on larger

Hi Dont dispute that they are available but when at the Southampton Boat Show both this year and last, it was evident they were only really interested in the bigger stuff, we were representing Viko Yachts (21, 26, 30 and 35 foot) and had lots of comments from prospective buyers saying that there was not a lot to look at in that range at the show.
On the east coast, mid 30s seems to be the sweet spot, big enough for families, small enough to explore the rivers and usually with a wheel as opposed to tiller, would just like a few more of them to sell!

 

[DoubleEnder]

I think the U.K. market is short of supply of good 2nd hand boats. The EU may be different.
But there is no such thing as ‘the market’ really, rather a number of different segments. Some of those segments may be sensitive to cost of living, falling house prices, tuition fees, pension lump sums.

But other segments really are not, and I think there are plenty of people in the £500k plus segments for whom the availability of funds to buy and run a boat is simply not a problem. By and large they aren’t on this forum, but there’s more than enough of them to support that end of the market. Maybe even more than before, as the allure of a second/3rd/4th home has probably faded a bit. So why not buy that big beautiful boat?

At SBS I watched a nice early 40s couple get in to an apparently serious convo about buying their first boat and it was going to be about 400 bags …. Money’s out there

 

[dgadee]

I am in buyer mode and I notice goodly sized price cuts whereupon boats do seem to sell. But I also notice that boats often have ancient engines - I am looking at a specific type from the 1980s - or heavy lifeboat engines.

I would expect to buy new sails for a used boat but a new engine and sails as well as all the other "basic" upgrades needed (hot water, solar, electric windlass, folding prop, self tailers) that owners haven't added over the years they have had the boat mean that the boat still isn't that attractive to me pricewise. But someone is buying them. I just wonder if there is further haggling being done even after the price cut.

 

[Tranona]

I am in buyer mode and I notice goodly sized price cuts whereupon boats do seem to sell. But I also notice that boats often have ancient engines - I am looking at a specific type from the 1980s - or heavy lifeboat engines.

I would expect to buy new sails for a used boat but a new engine and sails as well as all the other "basic" upgrades needed (hot water, solar, electric windlass, folding prop) that owners haven't added over the years they have had the boat mean that the boat still isn't that attractive to me pricewise. But someone is buying them. I just wonder if there is further haggling being done even after the price cut.

Such boats sell to people who don't see the items you list as "basic" upgrades but intend using the boats as they are for exactly the reason you mention. That list can often be as much as the cost of the boat and even more. I have just been through this exercise and spent well over twice the purchase price of the boat on a similar list. This only makes sense financially if you find your "ideal" boat and intend to keep it for a long time, plus being able to do most, if not all of the work yourself.

The ideal is to find a boat from somebody who has recently done all the work but decided (or forced) to sell before enjoying the benefit. A boat that you like in that situation is a very rare beast. When looking for mine I found one but missed it because of Covid restrictions on travel. Nothing like it has come up in the following 2 years.

 

[JamesL1969]

Gdallas has hit the nail on the end when he says there is no such thing as a market but a number of smaller markets, as each are affected differently and have different requirements/wishes when it comes to yachting. It has been frustrating over the last few years with a shortage of supply as some are looking for boats that are quite simply not on the market. Hopefully with a bit more supply, those buyers can be satisfied, hence my original statement that 2024 will be a positive year rather than the doom and gloom that many are suggesting

 

[Bobc]

This is what's happening in the car sales market. "Big lumps" like Range Rovers, Audi A7s, BMW X5s, etc. are not selling and trade prices have almost halved in the past few months. Things are begining to bite now, so expect boat prices to act in a similar was to luxury car prices.

 

[Bouba]

This is what's happening in the car sales market. "Big lumps" like Range Rovers, Audi A7s, BMW X5s, etc. are not selling and trade prices have almost halved in the past few months. Things are begining to bite now, so expect boat prices to act in a similar was to luxury car prices.

I was assured on the EV thread that it can only happen to second hand electric cars

 

[lustyd]

This is what's happening in the car sales market. "Big lumps" like Range Rovers, Audi A7s, BMW X5s, etc. are not selling and trade prices have almost halved in the past few months. Things are begining to bite now, so expect boat prices to act in a similar was to luxury car prices.

To be fair though, that's partially due to the artificial rise in price caused by stockpiling used cars a couple of years ago by large used car businesses who were shorting the economy and expecting huge inflation. It paid off very well indeed as inflation came along and their stockpiling caused a supply and demand issue, resulting in massive returns on their investment.
It had to end eventually as the country ran out of money.

 

[JamesL1969]

Interesting comparison to the car trade but lets not forget premium manufacturers sell about 95% of their new cars on PCPs many to people who can't really afford them (Let's face it some spend more on their car than on their mortgage!). the fall is not so much due to people not buying cars but downsizing (and reducing their payments)
This is a far cry from the boat market, where most buying more expensive boats are doing so without the encumbrance of mortgages.
Strip out the cost of borrowing and basically you are left with a supply and demand market. Yes, demand may fall a little but as per my previous post, supply is much less than pre covid.

 

[Bobc]

Interesting comparison to the car trade but lets not forget premium manufacturers sell about 95% of their new cars on PCPs many to people who can't really afford them (Let's face it some spend more on their car than on their mortgage!). the fall is not so much due to people not buying cars but downsizing (and reducing their payments)
This is a far cry from the boat market, where most buying more expensive boats are doing so without the encumbrance of mortgages.
Strip out the cost of borrowing and basically you are left with a supply and demand market. Yes, demand may fall a little but as per my previous post, supply is much less than pre covid.

I think you're missing the point here. The used "luxury car" market is people buying an expensive item with disposable income. This shows that the disposable income has either disappeared, or that those people are choosing to keep their money in their pockets. These cars are no different to boats, they are an un-necessary luxury expense, and they are being cut back on big time.

 

[Bouba]

Second hand big luxury cars are desirable to a small segment of the market....those that see themselves in a luxury car but can’t afford new...and second or third hand they are incredible value for money. Running them is the problem...diesel gives you the chance to run a big heavy car economically. But diesel has just been all but outlawed....leaving only petrol...and even if you want an S Class limousine....it’s really hard to justify the petrol outlay.....hence market collapsed

 

[JamesL1969]

I think you're missing the point here. The used "luxury car" market is people buying an expensive item with disposable income. This shows that the disposable income has either disappeared, or that those people are choosing to keep their money in their pockets. These cars are no different to boats, they are an un-necessary luxury expense, and they are being cut back on big time.

Sorry, have to dispute that. As someone who spent 35 years in the motor trade (12 running the Mercedes-Benz Approved Used Car Warranty programme Nationally), PCPs are not limited to the lower value models. (Should have added that the 95% relates to private purchases i.e not lease companies. So even Co Directors et al use this method as it is actively promoted by the manufacturers, the principal being that once on the treadmill, always on the treadmill)
So the motor trade is not really a fair comparison.

 

[Bobc]

Sorry, have to dispute that. As someone who spent 35 years in the motor trade (12 running the Mercedes-Benz Approved Used Car Warranty programme Nationally), PCPs are not limited to the lower value models. (Should have added that the 95% relates to private purchases i.e not lease companies. So even Co Directors et al use this method as it is actively promoted by the manufacturers, the principal being that once on the treadmill, always on the treadmill)
So the motor trade is not really a fair comparison.

USED CAR SALES

Trade auction prices collapsing because dealers don't want any more stock because they can't shift what they've got.

Nothing to do with new cars and main dealers. The new car/PCP market is very different.

 

[oldgit]

Locally a dealer who specialised in small economic cars has a noticeably empty car lot with very little stock.
Driving past two of the retailers who have vast car lots with hundreds of vehicles, some of them very high value indeed, they all appeared to full to brimming.
It is still proving difficult to source decent mobos in the middle to lower end of the market, the scarcity resulting in some very optimistic COVID prices still being demanded.

 

[DownWest]

Just heard today that a guy I sorted some bits for here parked his Westerly in Bruce's yard for covid and has not got back to it. Nice ketch in good nick. Seems he paid £50K for it, now thinking £30k. OK, bit of time there. But well looked after.