A fall in boat prices on horizon?

[Moonbeam]

Ultimately, this is a bit of a crystal ball thread... so all a bit of fun really...but here is a good example of what is happening in the market right now.

Here (link below) are three Bavaria C38's. The owner of the 2022 example obviously fancied getting a strong price due to the lead times for a new one to arrive. Unfortunately for them, two new 2023 examples are now available with Clipper, presumably the original buyers pulled out, for whatever reason, and lost their deposit.

Bavaria C38 boats for sale in United Kingdom - YachtWorld

As a result, the 2022 model has dropped their price nearly £40k (around 17%) to remain competitive. Back to the crystal ball....this is what I think we will see more of in the coming months.

Last November, during the Truss budget meltdown, a broker told me that of the 5 orders for a brand new Jeanneau 380 taken at the previous boatshow, 3 had now pulled out, forfeiting their deposit, due to the rising cost of the new delivery.

Theo Stockers 2021 review of the Bavaria C38 had a new list price of £143,893 (inc VAT...is that correct or a typo???). Look at the new Bav C38 price now (up 75% in two years) for what is a perfectly respectable, but ultimately entry level (in terms of build quality v budget) AWB. Same with the offerings from Ben/Jen.

The most boat for your money? Bavaria C38 yacht test - Yachting Monthly

I just don't think these new prices can hold or can be justified much longer... not in that area of the market. If so, that will inevitably effect used values.

The large pool of savings that many people built up during covid due to no holidays and gov hand outs is now starting to drain out and be spent elsewhere.

A lot of people purchased their first boat or changed their boat over the last 2 years. I see less buying going on now, less demand, and more supply. We all know what follows next.

 

[Moonbeam]

PS: Full disclosure, I'm in the market for our next boat . If I had a boat to sell... I'd be arguing strongly that prices are going to continue to rise

 

[Concerto]

Ultimately, this is a bit of a crystal ball thread... so all a bit of fun really...but here is a good example of what is happening in the market right now.

Here (link below) are three Bavaria C38's. The owner of the 2022 example obviously fancied getting a strong price due to the lead times for a new one to arrive. Unfortunately for them, two new 2023 examples are now available with Clipper, presumably the original buyers pulled out, for whatever reason, and lost their deposit.

Bavaria C38 boats for sale in United Kingdom - YachtWorld

As a result, the 2022 model has dropped their price nearly £40k (around 17%) to remain competitive. Back to the crystal ball....this is what I think we will see more of in the coming months.

Last November, during the Truss budget meltdown, a broker told me that of the 5 orders for a brand new Jeanneau 380 taken at the previous boatshow, 3 had now pulled out, forfeiting their deposit, due to the rising cost of the new delivery.

Theo Stockers 2021 review of the Bavaria C38 had a new list price of £143,893 (inc VAT...is that correct or a typo???). Look at the new Bav C38 price now (up 75% in two years) for what is a perfectly respectable, but ultimately entry level (in terms of build quality v budget) AWB. Same with the offerings from Ben/Jen.

The most boat for your money? Bavaria C38 yacht test - Yachting Monthly

I just don't think these new prices can hold or can be justified much longer... not in that area of the market. If so, that will inevitably effect used values.

The large pool of savings that many people built up during covid due to no holidays and gov hand outs is now starting to drain out and be spent elsewhere.

A lot of people purchased their first boat or changed their boat over the last 2 years. I see less buying going on now, less demand, and more supply. We all know what follows next.

This is very useful information about customers cancelling orders for new boats due to built in contract price rises. The 75% rise over 2 years is higher than I realised. Are you sure you are not comparing a basic boat to those with a string of extras included.

 

[Moonbeam]

The 75% rise over 2 years is higher than I realised. Are you sure you are not comparing a basic boat to those with a string of extras included.

No, I'll readily admit I'm not sure about that bit. Used prices are more my thing as I will probably never buy a new boat. But I do keep an eye on the upper /new end of the market to see what's coming down the track.

I am aware the options list and VAT inc/excl complicate the price comparison picture on new boats. But there is no doubt about just how much the new price of an average boat has spiralled out of all proportion to actual inflation over the last two years. The base price in Theo Stockers 2021 review says it's VAT INCL, but this seems too low, perhaps a typo? I'd love those of you with better info on new prices to weigh in.

The cancelling of the Jen 380 orders was direct from the horses mouth. Seems likely that this explains the availability of the two new C38's.

 

[prestomg27]

Bit of a thread revival here but i'm just starting looking for my next boat. Will probably not sell mine and get a new one until next year, but as one does, i've have been looking through apolloduck and the like and have been to see a couple.

My next one is likely to be in the MAB camp as i'm looking at contessa 32/rival 32 34s/ possibly elizebethan 30s and a budget of 15k - 25k. I'm seeing lots of MABs where the price is being reduced, so holding fire seems to be sensible as mortgage rates are only starting to kick in now.

I spke to one east coast broker yesterday after looking at one of his boats and he felt that the AWB market was holding up reasonably well but there were virtually no customers looking for MABs at the moment. In a way you can understand it. Money's tight, MAB owners will be paying the much the same for marina costs, haulage costs etc as a newer boat costing 5 times the amount.

Hopefully by early next year there may be a lot of more reasonably priced boats on the market, certainly at the 15 - 25 k end.

 

[B27]

I keep an eye on a few older boats, mostly on ApolloDuck.

I suspect we paid a high price for our current boat 18 months ago, but it was in the right place at the right time and didn't need much money spent on it.

There are apparent bargains about, but it's easy to spend a lot after buying, a new sail or two, standing rigging, upholstery, electronics.
A lot of boats belong to older people who are not much affected by mortgage costs rising. There perhaps won't be that many boat owners forced to sell.

This time of year, people are starting to see Autumn approaching so sellers get a little more keen thinking no one will buy in October.
But if you want to hit next season running, you need to be looking at boats now, doing a deal in September and getting everything sorted or at least 'in hand' before January.
It's also been a bit of a naff year weather wise, hard to plan anything?

£20k is only the price of a fairly mediocre used car. If you buy a boat and keep it 5 years, the total cost will likely mean that whether you paid £18k or £22k is a bit of a detail.
That kind of money does not go far in motorhomes or cruise ship holidays.

Maybe there might be a shift in the types of boat that sell well, less younger people wanting sportier boats in the next couple of years?
OTOH it's easy to look at some quite expensive older boats and think that nobody born after 1960 is ever going to want that!
In 5 years' time, maybe every yacht buyer will be used to today's high performance cruiser-racers and regard a Sigma 33 as a slow old thing and a Contessa 32 as pre-historic?

I could also point out that 15 to 25 thousand pounds is not an 'end' of the market, there are awful lot of boats, 'yachts' that is, which I'd put in the 5 to 10k bracket as a fully-functional 'going concern' that people can sail the coast on, there's plenty you could cross the channel or race round the cans too.
On paper, you can find a lot of £8k boats which make certain £16k boats look much over priced.

But if you want a fair view of the market, you actually have to get out and look at boats, because when you see a £25k boat on the market for a long time, that might mean that model is no longer worth £25k or it could mean that particular boat needs excessive TLC and money spent on it.


And don't forget, if the medium term trend is down, then your bargain boat will lose more money.

 

[lustyd]

when you see a £25k boat on the market for a long time, that might mean that model is no longer worth £25k or it could mean that particular boat needs excessive TLC and money spent on it.

Completely agree with this. I keep an eye on the market too and it's noticeable the ones that don't sell. In addition to sails and rigging stuff I think some perhaps older owners are getting caught out by not updating their electronics and being surprised that their £50k boat isn't worth £50k because the systems are 20 years old. I know a lot on here will respond with "but they still work" and that's a good sign you're going to be surprised when the market doesn't value your boat the same as others.
I'm often surprised how much boats are on the market for given how many of the consumable items are end of life or worse. Even ropes can cost several thousand to replace. I think it's very rare that the model of boat is just fundamentally worth less.

 

[Irish Rover]

I was interested in buying a Leopard power cat and I subscribed to the sunsail brokerage website to keep abreast of what's on offer. 9 of the last 10 emails from them have had price reductions usually around 5%.

 

[ashtead]

I’m just waiting for the bargain 46 ft from 2000 something to come on the market which isn’t an AWB but few produced by certain builders so as said maybe the slump is impacting a certain sector of buyers/vessels as mentioned.

 

[Concerto]

Bit of a thread revival here but i'm just starting looking for my next boat. Will probably not sell mine and get a new one until next year, but as one does, i've have been looking through apolloduck and the like and have been to see a couple.

My next one is likely to be in the MAB camp as i'm looking at contessa 32/rival 32 34s/ possibly elizebethan 30s and a budget of 15k - 25k. I'm seeing lots of MABs where the price is being reduced, so holding fire seems to be sensible as mortgage rates are only starting to kick in now.

I spke to one east coast broker yesterday after looking at one of his boats and he felt that the AWB market was holding up reasonably well but there were virtually no customers looking for MABs at the moment. In a way you can understand it. Money's tight, MAB owners will be paying the much the same for marina costs, haulage costs etc as a newer boat costing 5 times the amount.

Hopefully by early next year there may be a lot of more reasonably priced boats on the market, certainly at the 15 - 25 k end.

For your budget you should also look at Moody 29/30/31. Sadler 32/34. Sigma 33. Westerly Merlin/Konsort/Longbow/W31/Fulmar/W33. I can certainly recommend the Fulmar as I own one and from your list and mine it probably has the most internal volume and good sailing performance. This is a video of what mine is like. If you need any advice on the Fulmar, then I am a WOA BoatLine member for the class.

Just another comment. Keep an eye on the owners association For Sale pages as many good boats are not sold on apollo duck.
Craft for Sale

 

[prestomg27]

Fully agree concerto. All those are on mu list. Fulmar is up there following your excelkant round britain videos and also dot watching the guy who brought his home in the fastnet.

 

[Concerto]

Fully agree concerto. All those are on mu list. Fulmar is up there following your excelkant round britain videos and also dot watching the guy who brought his home in the fastnet.

Most MAB can be mde to look a lot better with some effort and some money. I think the biggest imrprovement for about £150 was stripping the internal woodwork and relacquering. This prensentation will give plenty of advice.
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/2/25/Interior_Woodwork_Concerto_PowerPoint.pdf

This presentation gives an idea of how I took Concerto from looking tired to sparkling.
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf

There are plenty of links to other things I have online if you hover on my photo avatar and click on about.

 

[lustyd]

imrprovement for about £150 was stripping the internal woodwork and relacquering

To be fair that only works if you place a zero value on your time or wood work is your hobby above boating. For me it would be cheaper to buy a brand new boat than put those hours in.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Most MAB can be mde to look a lot better with some effort and some money. I think the biggest imrprovement for about £150 was stripping the internal woodwork and relacquering. This prensentation will give plenty of advice.
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/2/25/Interior_Woodwork_Concerto_PowerPoint.pdf

This presentation gives an idea of how I took Concerto from looking tired to sparkling.
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf

There are plenty of links to other things I have online if you hover on my photo avatar and click on about.

Excellent articles. They demonstrate how an old boat can be brought back to an excellent condition by graft and elbow grease.

 

[lustyd]

Oh yes, I should have started with Excellent articles. They certainly are very useful so hopefully my point wasn't taken the wrong way.

 

[youen]

Please can you tell me the meaning of M A B?a big problem for us EU buyers is to pay the vat on the purchased boat

 

[dgadee]

Lovely work. Makes me feel obliged to put a bit more effort into the interior of my 1985 boat.

I think the only problem (as well as having knackered engines) with these boats before 1990, selling wise, is that they so often lack the stern cabin that people like nowadays. I seem to remember that the last Seawolf 30 (only 10 were apparently built) had one.

 

[dgadee]

Please can you tell me the meaning of M A B?a big problem for us EU buyers is to pay the vat on the purchased boat

Buy in Northern Ireland and you can get a UK boat which is EU VAT friendly.

 

[lustyd]

I think the only problem (as well as having knackered engines) with these boats before 1990, selling wise, is that they so often lack the stern cabin that people like nowadays. I seem to remember that the last Seawolf 30 (only 10 were apparently built) had one.

I don't think it's a desire for a rear cabin so much as the additional space per foot of boat. An older 36 footer has less space than a modern 30 footer, and probably less than a 26 footer. Unless seriously heeled the old 36 footer might have a similar waterline length to a modern 30 footer too. I think the reality is that a lot of buyers realise that length isn't everything when it comes to boat sizing.

 

[lustyd]

Please can you tell me the meaning of M A B?a big problem for us EU buyers is to pay the vat on the purchased boat

Manky/Mouldy Auld(old) Boat. Just means anything pre AWB (Average White Boat). You'll have to pay the VAT regardless since you'll be importing, unless the previous owner can re-import under returned goods relief to the EU before you buy. On a MAB you may also have to certify to CE standards which can be costly since old boats will not be compliant.