Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
A good post 'cos Rustler have the molds and those for the Bowman.
Tradewind 35
- Thread starter scotty123
- Start date
Rogerkynaston
New Member
Could also think about
A Rival 36. They were the last of Peter Bretts designs and were built into the nineties I think. They are a fin and skeg rather than full keel but have a very substantial skeg and legendary seakeeping qualities.
I am perfectly happy with my 34 so am only slightly biased.
A Rival 36. They were the last of Peter Bretts designs and were built into the nineties I think. They are a fin and skeg rather than full keel but have a very substantial skeg and legendary seakeeping qualities.
I am perfectly happy with my 34 so am only slightly biased.
Pleiades
Well-Known Member
Tradewind, rivals and Rivals
V nice pickie Alioops - she is going well - no complaints about speed from your crew!
I don't think there is much disagreement amongst owners of Tradewinds, Rivals, Rustlers, Nics and similar. These are all great sea boats and if slogging to windward for days or weeks on end in heavy weather is important then any will do us nicely. The Tradewind is likely to be somewhat slower than a Rustler in most condions as although similar in length the TW wetted surface is greater and the displacement some 3000lbs heavier. Extra displacement does provide benefits for sea kindliness in more extreme conditions and helps with load carrying capacity but all these boats have nothing to prove as passage makers. There are differences of degree - the Rustler cockpit (in comparison to the TW) is wide and shallow, the cabin is all on one level with a nice sea view throughout whereas in the TW one steps down then down again to a much deeper cabin sole with sea berths below the waterline but no view. The Rival is fin and skeg but that does not stop it doing the same job.
Plodding steadily to windward under sail in a blow with the windvane doing the work, I often wonder at modern "high performance" yachts slamming along under reefed main and diesel donkey with the skipper perched up on their exposed helm positions. They must be really tough sailors to put up with progress such as that.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5
V nice pickie Alioops - she is going well - no complaints about speed from your crew!
I don't think there is much disagreement amongst owners of Tradewinds, Rivals, Rustlers, Nics and similar. These are all great sea boats and if slogging to windward for days or weeks on end in heavy weather is important then any will do us nicely. The Tradewind is likely to be somewhat slower than a Rustler in most condions as although similar in length the TW wetted surface is greater and the displacement some 3000lbs heavier. Extra displacement does provide benefits for sea kindliness in more extreme conditions and helps with load carrying capacity but all these boats have nothing to prove as passage makers. There are differences of degree - the Rustler cockpit (in comparison to the TW) is wide and shallow, the cabin is all on one level with a nice sea view throughout whereas in the TW one steps down then down again to a much deeper cabin sole with sea berths below the waterline but no view. The Rival is fin and skeg but that does not stop it doing the same job.
Plodding steadily to windward under sail in a blow with the windvane doing the work, I often wonder at modern "high performance" yachts slamming along under reefed main and diesel donkey with the skipper perched up on their exposed helm positions. They must be really tough sailors to put up with progress such as that.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5
djc
Well-Known Member
Well said Robin ,that hits the nail on the head so to speak .
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Even though I dont sail a Bendytoy or a Bav I would see that as a caracature of reality. It should be possible to like a Tradewind without knocking the boats that most people chose.
Robin
Well-Known Member
I was nodding in agreement until I got to the bit I highlighted which I'm afraid is way too generalised a comment and smacking of MAB prejudice!
To put the counter view, in our Sun Legende 41 we very frequently passed boats of the long keel heavy variety who were a bashing and a crashing away merrily to windward with or without engine assist in heavy weather whilst we overtook under sail, sprayhood down, two fingers on the wonderfully light wheel and smiles on our faces. Not sure they all appreciated our cheery waves though..
doug748
Well-Known Member
Hurrah.
What really gets on everyone's tits are those knock kneed, bone headed, spavined, part invented, half remembered, dreamtime anecdotes of the time when:
".... we went past a Daydream 38 and they were aghast with astonishment at the speed of our 34 foot Turdthrasher"
Nobody believes you, nobody gives a rat's rectum and it proves nothing.
(So good post Bosun - you could say I agree with you :=)
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Kilter
Well-Known Member
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Pleiades
Well-Known Member
Tradewind, rivals, Rivals and donkeys....
Hi Bosun and (other) Robin,
am not bashing anyone's boats nor their crews - I like all boats and appreciate that a high performance yacht can perform highly when in the same conditions the long keelers, heavy Rivals and Nics are just plodding along. I also very much like motor boats so where does the prejudice bit come from - not I!
In fact I admire the crews for putting up with what for me are aspects of their boats which I do not fancy in an all weather cruising vessel - such as livelier motion at sea, exposed helm position, etc. If one does not need a sprayhood and is comfy with an open transom and only a wire guard line behind your back that is fine by me - enjoy!
Surely it is "sea horses for sea courses" - a cart horse can plod around a race track and a race horse can pull a cart - that surely does not mean one type is bad and the other good. Some boats might be more donkey than thoroughbred stallion perhaps but I am not passing judgement, each to his own.
If some skippers prefer to motor sail and slam into head seas when I am snug under my sprayhood with the boat sailing herself steadily to windward thats up to them but it was an observation rather than a generalisation. And sorry to cause upset if you were actually out there all those times in the heavy weather in your own fine vessels but you had actually sailed past me so fast that I missed you! Spray must have obscured my vision.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5
Hi Bosun and (other) Robin,
am not bashing anyone's boats nor their crews - I like all boats and appreciate that a high performance yacht can perform highly when in the same conditions the long keelers, heavy Rivals and Nics are just plodding along. I also very much like motor boats so where does the prejudice bit come from - not I!
In fact I admire the crews for putting up with what for me are aspects of their boats which I do not fancy in an all weather cruising vessel - such as livelier motion at sea, exposed helm position, etc. If one does not need a sprayhood and is comfy with an open transom and only a wire guard line behind your back that is fine by me - enjoy!
Surely it is "sea horses for sea courses" - a cart horse can plod around a race track and a race horse can pull a cart - that surely does not mean one type is bad and the other good. Some boats might be more donkey than thoroughbred stallion perhaps but I am not passing judgement, each to his own.
If some skippers prefer to motor sail and slam into head seas when I am snug under my sprayhood with the boat sailing herself steadily to windward thats up to them but it was an observation rather than a generalisation. And sorry to cause upset if you were actually out there all those times in the heavy weather in your own fine vessels but you had actually sailed past me so fast that I missed you! Spray must have obscured my vision.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
You'd be far better off with an LM 30.....
Robin
Well-Known Member
I like all boats too, including motor which is in fact our latest and soon to be live aboard venture. I was merely trying to politely say that not all modern designs slam when going upwind although quite a few clearly do. I was also trying politely to say that not all of the traditional style go upwind dreamily either!
Our last two boats going back 25 years were a Westerly 33 Ketch and a Jeanneau Sun Legende 41, so chalk and cheese. W33s, the chalk, are exceptionally good seaboats, several have circumnavigated and we often took off across Channel in ours for a weekend in an upwind near gale, but are retired masochists now. The Sun Legende is a late 80's Doug Peterson cruiser/racer that was a one ton cupper, won the SORC series down under and was a member of the French Admiral's Cup Team and the 'cheese'. This one went upwind like a witch, 7kts optimum at just 28 degrees to the apparent wind, compared to the W33 6kts at 35 degrees and right up to the top of F5 true wind (so much higher apparent) the sprayhood could be left down. Despite the extra speed and pointing much more into the wind and waves the SL didn't slam and in fact was much more comfy than the W33, maybe a factor of LOA I suppose too.
Anyway I agree there are lots of boats that bash and crash upwind, with or without engines going hard and have exposed cockpits as well. Where I beg to differ is that not all of them are modern style designs because plenty of traditional ones are the same and quite a few of them (and modern designs) couldn't go upwind at all well anyway in heavy weather. So it is generalisations that I am against because I think it is down to differences between individual designs that matters most.
So I don't think we are far apart in our thinking really at all!
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I think that's more to do with the skipper than the boat.
Signed Out
Well-Known Member
Strange how one sided this seems to be, when your posts have an air of similarity, having started the criticism of Tradewinds back on page 3, yet it's Pleiades' post that gets him pilloried.
Bunch of hypocrites. But that's Scuttlebutters and Lobbyists (Loungers) who cares if it's consistent if it follows particular viewpoints.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Dont know where page 3 is but thats irrelevant. Nowhere have I criticised a Tradewind - my comments on the speed were factual not critical. Had I wanted to criticise I would have referred to accommodation or to the lack of balance in the 33 requiring a bowsprit. But I didnt. Suggest you re-read.
Anyway, consistency is the sign of a small mind.
P.S. Your comment about page 3 triggers a thought. Are you reading on a phone or Ipad and is it re paginating ( if that it the right word) ie taking 2 pages and making 3 of them? I suspect that was what was happening when I was using my phone in a boring interval of a club dinner last night.
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Ludd
Well-Known Member
I f we're talking 35ft,comfort,space and sprayhoodsmay I show you my etchings?
AND a proper seamanlike rudder!
AND a proper seamanlike rudder!
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ParaHandy
Well-Known Member
Ahem, jings, how could you forget. the wee jimi wus trounced
and
The boat's fine, no wonderful, but fast they're not.
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
Lovely boats.
doug748
Well-Known Member
As one esteemed member pointed out, 60deg tacks are better than some TP yachts can achieve:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286344&page=3
Robin
Well-Known Member
doug748 said:
Are you trying to say that what I said about the Sun Legende optimum wind angle and speed was wrong? If so I think you need to understand the difference between apparent wind and true wind. In fact the Sun Legende would point as close as 22 degrees apparent in flat water with a reasonable windpeed, just that the VMG to windward was no better doing that because the boatspeed through the water would drop to 6kts or thereabouts. True wind angles and tacking angles are an entirely different matter and other factors like windspeed, leeway and seastate will be involved.
Most decent cruising boats will probably find 35 degrees apparent is about right in moderate conditions, but need more in lumpy seas. The beauty of a windward witch however is that when the sea gets lumpy you can free off (in our case to 35 apparent, with eased sheets too) to get more power to get through whilst still pointing higher (and tacking through less) than a pure cruiser. Having such a boat was pure wall to wall grinning pleasure and I'm just sorry that I didn't make the switch earlier, much as I loved the previous W33 ketch as well.
As a general comment, there are plenty of people that think steering to 45 degs on the wind instruments is the norm to aim for and will give a 90 degree tacking angle, which it does not because that would be well over 100.
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