2015 Hamble Winter Series

[TallBuoy]

Then Warsash Spring series is your best bet. Though I gather Lymington also gets ok fleets.

Historically we've had a small number of J80s in IRC but there is now a growing fleet, possibly 12 in the spring, so we are running them as a Class fleet in the current series. This ends in 3 weeks time, then its up to the Royal Lymington to decide how to run their Spring Series.

the consensus is that they have a lot more fun racing each other than in a handicap fleet.

 

[Judders]

the consensus is that they have a lot more fun racing each other than in a handicap fleet.

That's kind of how it's gone with the Impalas. When there were only a few, we were all at the top end of IRC, but now there are eight of us we barely bother racing the other boats in the class.

It doesn't quite make sense at first glance.

 

[flaming]

The organisers just posted this video on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/GarminHamb...40010028/?video_source=pages_finch_main_video

RRS 49.2 says

49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing
instructions they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any
part of their torsos outside them, except briefly to perform a
necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines, a
competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his waist inside
the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the
upper lifeline. If the class rules do not specify the material or
minimum diameter of lifelines, they shall comply with the
corresponding specifications in the ISAF Offshore Special
Regulations.

The mainsheetman (And helm I think, though it's hard to see) don't seem to comply with that rule as I read it. Comments?

 

[TallBuoy]

I see what you are saying - they are not facing outward so don't qualify to have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline. Nor are they briefly performing a necessary task.

Its one of those where the literal meaning of the rule and its spirit of the rule are different. Would be interesting to see a protest committee try to decide. It needs an ISAF Case to set a precedent!

 

[flaming]

I would say that the intent if the rule is to keep people in the boat! And by having your upper body outside, but facing inboard you'd be in danger of sliding out backwards if the boat was suddenly to heel the other way. (For example in an unplanned tack) this isn't the case if you're facing out.

 

[savageseadog]

Have there been any dismastings this series?

 

[olly_love]

The organisers just posted this video on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/GarminHamb...40010028/?video_source=pages_finch_main_video

RRS 49.2 says



The mainsheetman (And helm I think, though it's hard to see) don't seem to comply with that rule as I read it. Comments?

Hi Flaming,

that is my boat (me on the helm)
its pretty common on the impala and many IOR boats to do this
If we sat inside then we would have severe back pain having to lean in. due to the angles of the rails and taper in the hull
(the boat has a small ledge back there.)

Not fallen out yet in 3 years.

 

[flaming]

I get the issues with comfort, I'm just wondering if anyone has tested that position with a protest?

 

[Judders]

I get the issues with comfort, I'm just wondering if anyone has tested that position with a protest?

Not so far as I am aware.

It was mooted at Cowes last year but given that we had withdrawn a technical protest against the same boat previously that season and they were comfortably ahead of us in the regatta, they didn't go ahead.

 

[flaming]

So is this one of those occasions where the fleet as a whole are electing to ignore one rule / not look too hard at it on the basis of practicality, and that as everyone does it no boat is disadvantaged?

 

[Judders]

It's very much the former.

 

[markhomer]

So is this one of those occasions where the fleet as a whole are electing to ignore one rule / not look too hard at it on the basis of practicality, and that as everyone does it no boat is disadvantaged?

Rules is rules whatever , they are not open to interperatation , nor because everyone breaks them become invalid , for helmsmen , main man this is a black and white situation , if someone protested , the protest committee would have no option other than to uphold protest , if not they dont know what they are doing ,
not sure or have time to look up wether si's can change this rule for events ,

However i agree in that i think this should be allowed , some boats can be down right dangerous because you cannot do this , i have bruises to show and lucky , not to have broken bones in the past ,

The rules are written by our governing bodies , moves to repeal dangerous rules ,in my opion , should be made by sailors making a group representation to our mna ( rya ) in first place , they are happy to take our money after all .

 

[Birdseye]

Markhomer is right - this is a straight breach of the rules. No question. But it would still be a very petty protest because in no way does flouting the rule help sailing performance. No advantage gained. So maybe the decision would be in favour of the protest but with no penalty.

Can a protest committee do that ?

 

[markhomer]

There are many rules that dont affect sailing performance , however breaking this one clearly does .
1. Moves weight outboard further than rules allow for two crewmembers , thats has definate performance enhancements.

2. Allows helm to stay in position , rather than falling into cockpit , in some cases dumping main at same time and causing a crash tack ( i suggest avoiding this gives significant performance advantage ) .

Can a protest committee disqualify someone for breaking an unchanged part 4 rule , i doubt it , they would be scored dsq and recieve relevant penalty .

However , there is light .

Under rule 86.1 , (b) sailing instructions can change rule 49.2 , class rules can change rule 49.

As far as i can see , impala class rules do not change this rule , hamble nor dont change it , irc dont change this .


Olly love from your posts above think you are walking on rocky ground , openly admitting , what would seem that you have broken the rules for last 3 years would be leaving you open for protest for breaking ruke 42.9 , and poss even 69 . I wonder why you would even say it , never mind you post video of yourself seemingly breaking rules !!!


As it would seem that the organising authorities of these races and classes can change these rules ( after further investigation to my previous e ) , i would suggest all sailors get together and get changes implemented , if organisers etc dont want to because of there perceptions of safety and rule 49.2 , that would imply that they want the rule , and beware protests by race committee and fellow competitors .


My stance is , i would like to see rule changed either by isaf , or a mna prescription , class rules or event organisers , but untill then im fully aware if i do it im breaking a rule whose penalty is dsq , havent been falling into cockpit of bl@@dy snotter when windy for last 3 seasons for no reason.

Its worse on small boats where helm and mainsheet are same man , when honking and youve run out of string to pull to depower and only thing left is dumping main , with no hands to hold on and extreme heel , cockpit here i come.

 

[flaming]

There are many rules that dont affect sailing performance , however breaking this one clearly does .
1. Moves weight outboard further than rules allow for two crewmembers , thats has definate performance enhancements.

Agree with that, especially as the alternative that they have if complying with 49.2 is uncomfortable when sat out on their boat is to sit in the cockpit. Would probably be more than a competitive person could bear though.

If the impalas have an unspoken agreement that everyone is going to sail like that, then I guess that's up to them when racing OD. Just watch out for the one chap who doesn't and protests the whole fleet one day just because...

I'm not sure what I'd think if I was on a non Impala in that IRC class though. 2 of the crew definitely have their weight further out than is allowed by 49.2.

My stance is , i would like to see rule changed either by isaf , or a mna prescription , class rules or event organisers , but untill then im fully aware if i do it im breaking a rule whose penalty is dsq , havent been falling into cockpit of bl@@dy snotter when windy for last 3 seasons for no reason.

I'm not sure about that. If 49.2 was re written then effectively all mainsheet trimmers and drivers would need to start sticking their torso's out, regardless of whether or not it was a good idea on their boat, otherwise they're not sailing at the most efficient way that the boat can be sailed, max righting moment. Ditto if IRC allowed it. And if HRSC said it was allowed on Impalas but not other IRC4 boats by an SI... Well that would cause a bit of a stir, so again would have to be all fleet, and so may well have boats for who that is not suitable feeling that they have to sail like that.

Of course if an Impala OD event prescribes it, that is entirely up to the class.

 

[Judders]

Not sure everyone will fancy a force five gusting seven this week.

 

[TallBuoy]

Not sure everyone will fancy a force five gusting seven this week.

best get a jacket with lots of pockets, and fill them with sand !

 

[DFL1010]

best get a jacket with lots of pockets, and fill them with sand !

Which would, of course, break R43:

43.1 (a) Competitors shall not wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purpose of increasing their weight.

Of course, that's just my binary-thinking interpretation of the rule

 

[flaming]

Not sure everyone will fancy a force five gusting seven this week.

Just what the Doctor ordered!

 

[Keen_Ed]

So maybe the decision would be in favour of the protest but with no penalty.

Can a protest committee do that ?

For anything other than rule 69, only if the SIs say they can. 64.1.

For a hearing (not protest hearing) under 69, the PC ..."(1) warn the competitor or (2) impose a penalty by excluding the competitor and, when appropriate, disqualifying a boat, from a race or the remaining races or all races of the series, or by taking other action within its jurisdiction. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score. "