2004 Bavaria 32...strange water leak...

[Iain C]

I've got a strange leak on my B32, and as the boat is new to me, is really annoying me! I know about re-sealing fittings, talcum powder etc, but I was specifically hoping to hear from any other Bav owners who might have had something similar. I'm afraid that as I've only had the boat a few weeks I'm not very familiar with any of the systems/piping etc yet.

See picture below. I'm stood at the bottom of the companionway looking forward here. The pumps are in the compartment I'm stood on, which is dry. The next compartment is the one which is getting wet...really quite wet indeed...over the course of the weekend I got about 3 buckets out, on separate occasions. The next two have the keel bolts in them (the first compartment has the cover off exposing the keel bolts, and the second has the cover on.)

Between the two exposed compartments is a structural beam, although it's hollow...if you poke your finger into that visible drain hole you can move your finger around in the void inside. And that is where the water seems to be coming from.

The answer to the important question...it is fresh water. Initially, I was incredibly worried, as just in front of that rib there is the aft keelbolt, and the water almost seemed to be pooling around it. However I taste tested it many many times and I am absolutely convinced it's fresh. A proper shot glass amount of bilge water has no salty taste at all, however even dipping my finger in seawater and licking it makes it very obvious it's the salty stuff. And trust me I checked again and again until I was absolutely convinced. Although the water does almost taste as if it's had some olive oil poured in. But the engine compartment is dry, and there's no hint of antifreeze/coolant in this bilge water. Funny thing is when I bought the boat she'd been sat on a swinging mooring all winter and the bilges were absolutely bone dry, and all I've done with her so far is motor about 15 miles in calm weather. However the owner had drained the water tanks to prevent freezing and I brimmed them when I bought her a few weeks ago.

I've not yet started unscrewing any other floor panels. However what is confusing me is that the water seems to be coming out of that hole, rather than seeping in from somewhere else, and if I poke kitchen roll up inside the rib it comes out wet. However I don't think there's a pipe (which could have fractured) which runs through that rib at all...the deck filler is on the transom, the water tank under the aft cockpit berth, and the heads is aft too, so I don't think any pipes go anywhere near that part of the boat. I dried everything out, and the leak slowly came back, with no systems running...it's as if the water is trapped somewhere and trickling down slowly. If it makes any difference, it absolutely hosed it down on Saturday, although the leak was still there on Sunday which was a dry day.

I guess my plan is to run the various taps and see if the leak comes back, then drain the water tank (which is very full) and run the engine, and if all else fails poke an endoscope up that hole and see if I can see anything.

But as I said if anyone has had similar experiences, please let me know!!

Thanks

 

[Tranona]

Not uncommon - there is a thread running on the Bavaria info forum at the moment on this very subject. The source of the water may be a long way from where it appears and it is getting into the void under the inner moulding. With that sort of volume it is unlikely to be coming through a fitting, but from the water tank or plumbing. The obvious places are the filler and the vent. This would be the first place to look given you have just filled the tank. While in the lazarette have a look at the deck shower fittings and pipes as this is another common source. However if there is a leak in the plumbing you would hear the pump cycling to compensate for the leak. I had this recently when the water in the shower head froze and cracked the plastic housing.

Water tends to bypass the engine bay "sump" because that is a sealed moulding, but if the leak is in the aft section of the boat as yours seems to be water will get into the beams and slowly work its way down to the bilge area you found it in. Even after you have found and stopped the source it may take some time for all the water to drain down.

 

[VicS]

One place I'd check is the piping etc between the water tank and the pump, especially the pump inlet strainer as that may not have been drained properly and suffered damage due to freezing during the winter.

 

[alan]

I don't have a Bavaria but I have had a few leaks on my Beneteau and most boats are somewhat similar! No matter where the leak is, the water will almost invariably find its way to the lowest part of the bilge eventually. The good news is that you have already identified it be "fresh" water even if it does taste a bit skanky; as you correctly identified salt water is unmistakeably salty!!!! I had a leak whereby water continued coming out of the hole in the stringer for ages after I cured the leak (depending on how far over the boat was heeled during use). I used my oil suction pump with a small bore hose to poke up inside the stringers - but it still took ages to get all the water out. Other possible sources of leaks are:

The plastic stoppers for the inspection holes on the water tanks (if you have them), on Beneteaus these crack and when the tanks are full water leaks out and into the bilges
Any of the fresh water pipes which run aft/forwards from tank/pumps/sinks/showers etc and the numerous connection and tee pieces along the way
Stern shower head (if you have one) leaking and water running back down the outside of the tube into the bilges
Pressure relief valve on the calorifier (boiler)
Could be rain water getting past a cockpit locker seal and this also will find its way into the bilge (although probably unlikely as you say it was dry when you bought it, and it was on a swinging mooring)

When you have the fresh water pump on (electrically) does it occasionally pressurise even if all the taps are closed?? This is a sure sign of a leak somewhere in the cold or hot circuits.
I think I would drain the fresh water circuit completely tanks and pipes and see if the leak goes away; if it does that will give you a starting point; then you can try and eliminate parts of the water circuit to try and identify where the leak is. You can get blanking plugs for water pipes (1/2" ???) from your local plumbing shop to close off parts of the water circuit.

Don't worry we have all been there: last year my water pump kept pressuring the cold water system (unless the leccy was switched off) and after stripping and greasing the pump four times as I thought the pressure switch on the pump had failed, I eventually found water in the bilges which I eventually traced to a loose jubilee clip (which had not been touched since the boat was built !!!) on a "T-Piece" located under the rear birth close to the boiler .... a ten second fix after three days of not using the water system!!!!

Good luck,
Alan.

 

[Iain C]

Guys thanks for the encouraging and helpful posts. I'll be honest...I was pretty despondent yesterday. My day had started at 0400 getting off the scrubbing grid at HW, followed by a whole day of working on the boat and getting some of my gear off my old Sabre (sold to a mate so I still have access as it were). I know every single inch of that boat and how simple all the systems are and of course had the whole "have I done the right thing here buying this posh leaky yacht" thoughts. I finished the day off by going for a sail whilst putting her on the mooring...genoa only...and because I'd not tucked the wire pre-feeder thing on top of the furling drum away, it plucked the furling line out of the drum and I ended up with an almighty mess of line wrapped around the furler, full genoa which I could not furl, and I was there on my own in a boat that felt big, fast and powerful in building breeze, and then whilst trying to sort it slashed my hand open royally on something. Cue motoring round in circles to sort the genny, blood everywhere...got it all sorted though, and then an hour or so sat on the mooring drinking bilge water and trying to work out WTF was happening in the bilges! And then in my tired state I got halfway back from the boat to the club before realising I'd not shut the saildrive seacock! So back I went...then chuck in the A34 being closed and a diversion through the middle of Oxford and getting home at midnight...I just needed sleep but was thinking of a sinking boat all night!

Anyway, back to the issue and the pump does not seem to run unless the tap is open, however I did use the heads shower a bit, and the shower tray pump, so I might start my investigations there. I've not actually used the deck shower, however I guess the circuit would have been pressurised as soon as the heads shower was turned on. That's very interesting Tranona about bypassing the engine sump...so what you are basically saying is that brown GRP I am looking at in the pics is not the inside of the hull as such, there's basically a void under that, in my case with water sloshing around in it, and then the actual hull? I guess there must be quite a big gap there to make the keel bolts long enough to be strong...

Thanks again guys, feel much better about things now!!

 

[GregOddity]

Guys thanks for the encouraging and helpful posts. I'll be honest...I was pretty despondent yesterday. My day had started at 0400 getting off the scrubbing grid at HW, followed by a whole day of working on the boat and getting some of my gear off my old Sabre (sold to a mate so I still have access as it were). I know every single inch of that boat and how simple all the systems are and of course had the whole "have I done the right thing here buying this posh leaky yacht" thoughts. I finished the day off by going for a sail whilst putting her on the mooring...genoa only...and because I'd not tucked the wire pre-feeder thing on top of the furling drum away, it plucked the furling line out of the drum and I ended up with an almighty mess of line wrapped around the furler, full genoa which I could not furl, and I was there on my own in a boat that felt big, fast and powerful in building breeze, and then whilst trying to sort it slashed my hand open royally on something. Cue motoring round in circles to sort the genny, blood everywhere...got it all sorted though, and then an hour or so sat on the mooring drinking bilge water and trying to work out WTF was happening in the bilges! And then in my tired state I got halfway back from the boat to the club before realising I'd not shut the saildrive seacock! So back I went...then chuck in the A34 being closed and a diversion through the middle of Oxford and getting home at midnight...I just needed sleep but was thinking of a sinking boat all night!

Anyway, back to the issue and the pump does not seem to run unless the tap is open, however I did use the heads shower a bit, and the shower tray pump, so I might start my investigations there. I've not actually used the deck shower, however I guess the circuit would have been pressurised as soon as the heads shower was turned on. That's very interesting Tranona about bypassing the engine sump...so what you are basically saying is that brown GRP I am looking at in the pics is not the inside of the hull as such, there's basically a void under that, in my case with water sloshing around in it, and then the actual hull? I guess there must be quite a big gap there to make the keel bolts long enough to be strong...

Thanks again guys, feel much better about things now!!

Wow, and I was complaining about my Mud incident with my new tender and outboard.

 

[BoyBlue49]

I had something similar on my Bavaria, check the lazaret shower nozzle, they crack if not removed over winter then leak into the bilge. If it is fresh water you won't sink.

 

[Tranona]

Anyway, back to the issue and the pump does not seem to run unless the tap is open, however I did use the heads shower a bit, and the shower tray pump, so I might start my investigations there. I've not actually used the deck shower, however I guess the circuit would have been pressurised as soon as the heads shower was turned on. That's very interesting Tranona about bypassing the engine sump...so what you are basically saying is that brown GRP I am looking at in the pics is not the inside of the hull as such, there's basically a void under that, in my case with water sloshing around in it, and then the actual hull? I guess there must be quite a big gap there to make the keel bolts long enough to be strong...

Thanks again guys, feel much better about things now!!

Yes, the brown bit is the inner lining. If you go on the Bavaria forum and look at the thread on bilges (in the modifications section) you will find a good photo of a hull in the factory with the inner being installed. Give you a good idea of the construction. The area around the keel bolts is solid and the box sections spread the loads across the bottom of the hull as well as take the rigging loads through tie bars attached to webs that are bonded to the hull and the inner.

Pretty standard construction for boats at that time, and in fact for a long period from 1990's until recently when there has been a move to gluing in the inner rather than glassing in as yours is.

Shower tray and pump worth investigating, although my money is on a leak somewhere between the filler and the pump. Don't recall exactly how the filler hose and vent attach to an aft tank, but on the forward tanks there was only a short stub and a single clip. Also check the top of the tank where the inspection hatch and sender unit are as the leak may be only happening when the tank is full.

 

[jordanbasset]

In addition to the helpful advice already given, a few years ago when I changed the heater element on the calorifier I spilled about half a gallon into the bilges. It finally came out of the hole you have photographed. It took a couple of weeks of wicking out before we finally got it all. So it maybe this was an old spillage, which may take times to come out.
Of course you should still check for leaks, but if it does slow right down it maybe that there was no leak, or atleast a leak that was fixed, before you bought the boat, although three bucket loads does seem a lot

 

[Iain C]

Thanks Tranona...I'll give that a go. I assume I get to the filler through what looks like a hatch at the end of the aft cabin berth, and I guess the pump is in that cabin too? I'm hopeful it will be fairly obvious, I got a bucket and a half within 24 hrs. I've also only spent a couple of nights on board and not even cooked on board yet...so the running time of the galley and heads tap is no more than a minute in total. I'm also fairly sure that after filling the tank a few weeks ago initially I checked the bilge and all was good, so on the basis that the pump does not start unless a tap is opened (and in fact I have a few seconds of pressure if I turn a tap on with the pump switched off) I reckon it's going to be the shower...either a hose or the drain.

Also, thinking about this, I bought the boat on the 9th March and brimmed the tank that day. With other commitments I did not go back to her until the 2nd April and she was dry. So on the basis that this weekend I ended up with nearly 4 buckets in 48 hours, if it was something on the low pressure side I should have been coming back to floating floorboards. This weekend I had a shower, and then spent ages spraying the shower head over the floor trying to clean it, and chasing the water forward to the badly positioned drain. I seriously think it's the shower, and that funny taste in the water I mentioned may well have been soap! I would not be surprised if the shower is just draining straight into the bilge and not out the seacock at all. Please tell me I have access to remove the shower plughole and see what's going on under there??

 

[duncan99210]

The year I don't have some sort of minor freshwater leak into the bilge on my Bavaria 38 is one of rejoicing. If it's not a minor plumbing leak it's a stanchion base working loose or it's an open hatch in a rain storm. And once the water's got in somewhere, it'll eventually wind up in the bilge although it may take weeks for it all to actually make it there. We now keep a washing-up bowl and sponge in the aft end of the bilge and use it to mop up the very small amounts of on a day to day basis until it's all gone.
We've never bothered trying to suck the water out of the rib spaces or anywhere else: we simply wait for it to appear and mop it up. The trick, however, is figuring where the water's come from in the first place.
There's no way round the long process of fault finding. If it's not the fresh water system then it almost has to be a leaky deck fitting. I wander round the deck shaking individual fittings to see if they're loose, tightening if possible, occasionally removing and resealing until the water stops coming in.
Most times I've found that there's a problem with the plumbing. A loose clip on the pump took ages to identify because it looked fine, I replaced it because it had got a bit grotty and the pump cycling stopped and so did the water.

 

[Bobc]

My money is on a deck leak. I used to have this on my one, and it only took me 13 years to find it!

The brown structure is not the hull skin. The holes in it allow water from the skin to get into the bilge. It can take a while for it to find its way there (days sometimes), so the fact that it was dry yesterday has no bearing. It absolutely chucked it down on Saturday evening, so I reckon that's what it is and you have a leak in the deck somewhere.

First place to check are the mooring cleats. Next, check the stantions and the toerail, then check items on the side decks such as fillers. The factory used silicone to bed fittings, which breaks down over time and loses its seal. I'll bet you have 1 cleat bolt with no sealant under it or a deck filler/holding tank cap with where the sealant has gone.

BTW, my leak? I found a 3/4" gap in the sealant on the hull-deck seal, hidden hehind the teak capping.

 

[Iain C]

Hi Bob!

I really don't think it is a deck fitting. Remember she sat out there all winter and was absolutely bone dry. She then gets 4 buckets in 48hrs as soon as I start waving the shower around. No doubt there will be a small deck leak somewhere...bound to be...but that volume of water in a weekend has to be pumps/tanks. I know Saturday night was very wet, but she was sat on the Hardway grid with a very nose up attitude and the water was just streaming over the transom...it never had much of a chance to collect on the deck. Also, I found the first 2 buckets on Saturday morning...it had not rained by that point but I had used the shower on Friday night.

 

[Bobc]

Ok.

Water tank connections and all on the low pressure side (before the pump). Unless of course the shower sump has a big hole in it.

 

[Tranona]

Hi Bob!

I really don't think it is a deck fitting. Remember she sat out there all winter and was absolutely bone dry. She then gets 4 buckets in 48hrs as soon as I start waving the shower around. No doubt there will be a small deck leak somewhere...bound to be...but that volume of water in a weekend has to be pumps/tanks. I know Saturday night was very wet, but she was sat on the Hardway grid with a very nose up attitude and the water was just streaming over the transom...it never had much of a chance to collect on the deck. Also, I found the first 2 buckets on Saturday morning...it had not rained by that point but I had used the shower on Friday night.

Did you pump the shower out? It does not drain overboard but there is a small sump under the drain and a pump activated by a button somewhere in the loo compartment - probably on the side of the locker.

If you have the handbook there is a good detailed drawing of the plumbing layout showing the location of pumps etc which on my 37 were in the loo compartment behind the mirror. If you don't have the handbook think you will find a scanned copy on the Bavaria Info forum.

The hatch you refer to on the bulkhead in the aft cabin is the access to the lazarette where you will find steering gear, exhaust outlet etc.

 

[Iain C]

Did you pump the shower out? It does not drain overboard but there is a small sump under the drain and a pump activated by a button somewhere in the loo compartment - probably on the side of the locker.

If you have the handbook there is a good detailed drawing of the plumbing layout showing the location of pumps etc which on my 37 were in the loo compartment behind the mirror. If you don't have the handbook think you will find a scanned copy on the Bavaria Info forum.

The hatch you refer to on the bulkhead in the aft cabin is the access to the lazarette where you will find steering gear, exhaust outlet etc.

Yeah...pumped it out. My first port of call will be fill up the shower tray, disconnect shower out hose from (closed!) seacock, hold hose over bucket, press pump button and see what happens...

 

[Fenders]

I had a similar problem recently on my Bavaria 32.
Drained water tank for the winter. Refilled it early March. Bled taps to clear air. All good. Except I could hear water pump running. Quickly checked taps and then looked over rear of boat to see water pouring out of the transom shower fitting.
Turned off pump. Inspected shower to find that the handle had split from freezing weather. I removed the handle and plugged the end. Turned on pump and no further leaks. However the central bilges under the table were wet and I extracted quite a bit of water for a few days as it was seeping from the hole in the floor beam. None of the other bilges were affected except the one to the rear of the engine.
I have now bought a new shower handle and will remember to clear out the water in it next time I winterise.

Hope this helps

Fenders

 

[Tranona]

I had a similar problem recently on my Bavaria 32.
Drained water tank for the winter. Refilled it early March. Bled taps to clear air. All good. Except I could hear water pump running. Quickly checked taps and then looked over rear of boat to see water pouring out of the transom shower fitting.
Turned off pump. Inspected shower to find that the handle had split from freezing weather. I removed the handle and plugged the end. Turned on pump and no further leaks. However the central bilges under the table were wet and I extracted quite a bit of water for a few days as it was seeping from the hole in the floor beam. None of the other bilges were affected except the one to the rear of the engine.
I have now bought a new shower handle and will remember to clear out the water in it next time I winterise.

Hope this helps

Fenders

I had exactly the same, but my shower has the tap in the handle so the water is pressurised right up to the push button. The crack in the handle was invisible, but the water came out in a strong stream. New head from Penguin engineering. Just bought two ball valves and fittings to put in the hoses to isolate the shower head so I can drain it for winter and the pressure in the system does not rely on a push button, which on my boat is hidden by the drop down transom.

 

[ashtead]

All joins on the freshwater system must be suspect e.g. Where the pipe joins the calorify for hot water always leaked due to pipes developing holes etc. As has been said the water takes a while to move to point where it can be trapped but a supply of the plastic pipe and some of those plastic connectors might be useful investment. Bavavaria do have clean bilges but on basis it's freshwater the source of this is limited. The cracking by cold applies not just to showers but other joins under pressure. If it's a ongoing leak you should be able to tell from the freshwater pump going off occasionally without any taps in use. This is Fenders point about pump running I think. If you don't have pump noise maybe not in the pressurised system? A few nappies and small brass pump useful in those spaces. Also get out in some good sailing weather e.g. Down Soton water on with Sunday afternoon breezes will soon move water around from any hidden points to be collected by nappies .

 

[NormanB]

I know you need a rabbit hole like a hole in the head but could it be condensation?