2 ideas instead of scrapping life jackets etc

[lpdsn]

My choice (several years ago) was to put a PLB on every in service LJ (five of them). Recent experience shows activating a PLB in British coastal waters can result in rescue within 2 hours (rambler 100, 2011 Fastnet; a MOB from a rib a couple of years later off Pembrokeshire). If the MOB is consistently transmitting position to SAR that’s priceless.

Worth also reading the MAIB's report on the FV Louisa.

 

[prv]

Just a point on storing battery acid. Come 1st of November there are big fines for anyone caught with sulphuric acid at concentrations of over 15%, without a valid EPP licence.

Interesting; not heard of that. Presumably there’s an exemption for acid contained in a battery? And does it apply only to sulphuric acid, or any?

Last time I needed to clean some metal I bought a bottle of concentrated HCl quite cheaply via eBay, so the idea of cutting into old batteries to extract some grubby second-hand acid has limited appeal.

Pete

 

[ShinyShoe]

Did I say I thought the jonbouy effective? I don't think I did. I can't be bothered to go back and look.

I think it is an expensive piece of kit that can be replaced with a £0 scrap lifejacket, but you said it is a silly idea.

I have a lot to learn.

I have already taken the Hammar device from an expired lj and used it and an old buoyancy bag (folded up) to attach to my catamaran dinghy (as the proper inflatable ones cost more than the parts I had and my time).

I don't carry spare in date ljackets. But I have lots of old ones.

There is a difference between a device to stop your capsized cat turning turtle and being an even bigger ball ache to right (if you sail with safety cover - its avoiding a ballache, if you sail without you might need to call for help >> but assuming you are suited up and have the means to call for help you are probably not going to die.

The reason you wrote off the lifejacket - because if you need it - you 100% need it to work. OK your man in the water is presumably wearing a lifejacket but if you were deploying a jonboy would you want it to be out of date?

 

[William_H]

As said an inflated LJ would just be blown off course compared to a MOB. Far better might be a buoyancy vest type LJ to throw over to make a trail. However if you cut it up into usable sections there might not be the concern re a search for a person. You could use the padded sections as cushion for helmsman etc. Then again why not have cushions you can throw over to make a trail. Need of course to attach them (velcro) so they don't blow away inadvertently.
However best and primary advice. Harness etc so you don't go overboard. olewill

 

[sarabande]

The OP's suggestion of using a trail of items to lead back to the MOB is taken up by Zoidberg with two directional markers. Both of these systems rely on floating items which are subject to wind and wave action, and are 'single points' of visibility.

I suggest marking the sea itself, the track of the boat and the casualty's immediate area, with fluorescein, a very concentrated dye used in the water industry which produces a bright yellow colour.

Two components:-

1 a dye packet in the LJ which is opened as part of the inflation process

2 a container on the stern which when an MOB alert is triggered drips a trail of fluorescein into the water and provides a direct path back to the MOB.

 

[Sailingsaves]

The OP's suggestion of using a trail of items to lead back to the MOB is taken up by Zoidberg with two directional markers. Both of these systems rely on floating items which are subject to wind and wave action, and are 'single points' of visibility.

I suggest marking the sea itself, the track of the boat and the casualty's immediate area, with fluorescein, a very concentrated dye used in the water industry which produces a bright yellow colour.

Two components:-

1 a dye packet in the LJ which is opened as part of the inflation process

2 a container on the stern which when an MOB alert is triggered drips a trail of fluorescein into the water and provides a direct path back to the MOB.

Excellent idea for people that sail with crew.

I have a very large tub of orange paint that I didn't need and took up space in the garage, so I put it on the boat (just in case).

You see, I am a true PBO-er. Almost the type that uses fencing wire for standing rigging, hence my idea of not chucking lifejackets into a skip.

Attach them to bags that you don't want to sink, or ... something ... rather than trow them away.

Anyway, I need to reply to a rude person now.

edit

Sarabande's great idea: can be bought for £17.99 for 100g on ebay

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f...VCQcAKHe1QCWwQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=626#spd=0

I wonder how this cheaper 80g compares? What colour is it?
https://marinestore.co.uk/Merchant2...MIuMXXptTK2wIVWvhRCh1UHwNqEAkYDCABEgLLH_D_BwE

edit
CHEAPER here?
https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/d20/Testing+&+Reporting/sd2752/Drain+Tracing+Dye/p19855

 

[Sailingsaves]

There is a difference between a device to stop your capsized cat turning turtle and being an even bigger ball ache to right (if you sail with safety cover - its avoiding a ballache, if you sail without you might need to call for help >> but assuming you are suited up and have the means to call for help you are probably not going to die.

The reason you wrote off the lifejacket - because if you need it - you 100% need it to work. OK your man in the water is presumably wearing a lifejacket but if you were deploying a jonboy would you want it to be out of date?

You are on my ignore list for a previous rude comment some time ago and I have found that leopards do not change their spots, but I opened your post out of curiosity.

Your post has taught me 2 things:

You are still rude.
You are not as intelligent as others that understood what I posted.

The lounge is creeping into PBO.

Your rudeness was highlighting: ** "I have a lot to learn". **

Lack of intelligence was because you did not realise what I meant by it, but thought I meant I had a lot to learn about nautical things. I am quite confident that I need to learn less than you in that regard.

To the intelligent readers, it was obvious that I meant I had a lot to learn about PEOPLE or the different behaviour of some forum posters (there are nice people on here) or maybe to learn simply not to post anything.

I posted something that could have been useful or at least thought provoking - Sarabande has just taught some people something - to save scrapping useful (I find them useful even if others cannot think of uses) life jackets. If you don't like, you don't need to be rude.

How many people have simply thrown away lead acid batteries without taking the sulphuric (I prefer the UK spelling) acid out? How many people have not even thought of taking it out? My post was for them too. Useful stuff is acid if one is as practical as I am and working on metal and all sorts. Let a battery settle and it comes out colourless and clear; not grubby.

Also, you posted drivel in the last paragraph.

I have never written off a lifejacket. I was given a Hammar device on its own to investigate out of curiosity and upon rebuilding it I then thought of a use for it. Creating a seal was the most difficult part. Still it only cost me a bit of glue and time and not £75 and I learned a lot.

https://www.tridentuk.com/gb/produc...MIhcyZpNDK2wIVDlXTCh0cVwOVEAkYAiABEgIJAvD_BwE

"A jonbouy out of date", what are you on about? I would never waste £299. Did you read the posts?

You then wrote:
There is a difference between a device to stop your capsized cat turning turtle and being an even bigger ball ache to right (if you sail with safety cover - its avoiding a ballache, if you sail without you might need to call for help >> but assuming you are suited up and have the means to call for help you are probably not going to die.

What is that all about? It hardly makes sense. I made a device out of scrap items to stop an inversion. I don't get ball-ache from sailing. Or are you saying an inflating device at masthead can create a ball-ache? Very unclear. I have never capsized by accident. In a buoyant box I always carry a handheld, emergency vhf aerial with adapter (because I KNOW - having tested them - that stubby aerials are poor, an anchor, paddles on a cat and oars on a dinghy, flares and a mobile 'phone plus other sundries. With my business partner we used to make emergency vhf aerials out of scrap bits left over and they sold for £40 or £20 to a yacht chandler (who sold them for £40). Good aerial and yacht chandler wanted more, but we got fed up of making them by hand.

I usually sail when there are few people about in case I bump into rude people and being retired (very early, but not rich) I can sail whenever I like. Weekdays are great.

Don't bother replying to me, because I won't open the ignore message this time. I had to take 25mg of diazepan after I was first 'attacked' and told they could hardly think of a more silly idea, although the poster settled down later and sounded more reasonable. Strange that physical attacks never bothered me (in one of the jobs I had), but as I age, these verbals ones do. When his lifejackets with their personal locators etc are out of date, I wonder what he will do with his life jackets. He says his current ones won't store enough add-on equipment. Made me wonder if pockets could not be sewn onto the outside? But I know little of the equipment he speaks of as I don't have it (sailing single handed and not particularly bothered if I drown). I still devote a lot of time to thinking of safety ideas because I simply cannot stop my mind from doing so.

Discovery is seeing what everyone sees, but thinking what no one else has thought.

 

[coopec]

"I have never written off a lifejacket".

Actually neither have I: I've got my Mother-in-law's name written on one.

Clive

 

[Sailingsaves]

"I have never written off a lifejacket".

Actually neither have I: I've got my Mother-in-law's name written on one.

Clive

 

[Iain C]

I'd respectfully ask that you take that page down (if it's yours...I'm not clear) in case someone sees it and thinks it's a good idea. I was always told if you are really in the schtuk and have run out of proper purpose designed things to throw over the side as a breadcrumb trail, you may wish to consider using berth cushions as at least they are big and heavy, will float very low and waterlooged, and will approximately emulate the movement of the casualty (although I have no idea if this has ever been done). Your breadcrumb trail of lifejackets blowing off downwind merrily skipping from crest to crest is nothing short of downright dangerous and absolutely could mean the difference between life and death for a casualty. Every one you throw over reduces their odds of survival, simples.

So please....take it down.

Unfortunately some people take as gospel what they read on the internet. Look at all the legions of morons who fall every day for the Facebook "this campervan is in last year's colours so we can't sell it...like and share and you can win it". Or "To celebrate British Airways birthday we're giving away free seats...like and share and it's yours". Or even worse, I had several friends "share" a "this may save your life...share this now or live with the guilt" story about how every car manufacturer had to comply with rules that the bottom of the headrest pillars was always a spike shape, so if you accidentally drove your car into water, you could get out by simply removing the headrest and using the spikes to smash the door glass. I argued this point with a supposed intelligent friend of mine who said "but it says it's the rules" until I pointed out that in my Porsche the headrest and seat back are one integrated part, and to remove the Defender headrest you need to essentially strip the seat down, a half hour job with a large box of tools. He shut up after that one...no doubt waiting to get the call about the campervan. Sad thing is one day there may be a body pulled out of a flooded car holding a headrest...

So please...just take it down.

 

[[70521]]

I have no intention of ever letting a person on my boat go overboard (I have extensive measures in place), BUT if it did happen, I would do anything (including putting the RNLI and MCA at inconvenience to get back my MOB). I also hate to think of people throwing away out of date lifejackets that usually still work.

If you do have the unfortunate event of somebody going overboard and being recovered, please get them to hospital by the quickest possible means. This may include RNLL and MCA assets as you need to consider the risk of secondary drowning. While it is rare it can lead to death.

I strongly disagree about keeping a life-jacket forever as long they work. These are not toys, they are sometimes your last line of defense in keeping an unconscious body alive in a hostile environment. I am not sure I want to trust a twenty year old seam or weld in a F8 in a rough sea.

The aircraft industry replaces a significant number of components on one of three variables: time; number of landings; distance flown. My replacement cycle for life-jackets is time based, seven years, and will have a great amount of fun jumping into the sea and testing them for a last time as "active" kit.

 

[Moderator]

Thread restored, unchanged, following review. While some suggestions by some posters in the thread could be questioned on safety grounds, it is felt it is not the role of the Moderators to censor such views nor stifle debate.
Nothing in the thread breaches Ts & Cs.

Rod

 

[Sailingsaves]

Well, some good came out of this and no more rudeness which is great.

I know all about secondary drowning. I hope everyone else does too now. Worth a google for anyone who is not aware. It can kill someone 2 days later. if not addressed.

Sarabande's dye is an excellent idea. I think the Clipper MOB chap that survived after 90 minutes could have done with a sachet in his lj and a tub thrown at him and a better designed personal AIS.

The website talked about will be modified as soon as possible, because throwing over used unmodified lifejackets has been pointed out and proved as worse than useless. It was posed as a question.

Apologies to Bitbaltic. I don't like the word "silly", but the idea has been proved to be not good.

Throwing over weighted, tied together, each with a drogue, with all webbing straps removed, light still attached that will probably still work, each named with item's purpose, vessel's name etc, with lifejackets parceled in a cylinder and tied with 3 pieces of wool and stored in a drainpipe like device next to danbuoy could be tested in real life and assessed by some company maybe... If no good, so be it. If works, saves scrapping lifejackets and provides a new piece of safety equipment.

I won't be doing the research as I have bigger fish to fry that will actually make money and don't use scrap items.

Horseshoes? Mine sits in the garden. For some reason I have not thrown it away.

After this discussion, I would certainly not throw over unmodified old lifejackets. I don't think I ever would have; a bucket would have been clipped on. I carry a lot of buckets and silicon foldable ones (e.g. for emegency sterring etc)

It does beg the question of the £200 inflatable jonbouys perhaps? (If the MOB is recovered and the jonbouy has blown away).

Running down below, breaking a leg, losing sight of MOB to throw cushions is not my ideal, but each to their own. If your boat is crewed, then it is a well known tactic. Just don't run.

As said, I always single hand.

Going from tender to boat I still tie out of date lifejackets to equipment that I don't wish to sink such as tool box, 100Litre bags of equipment, food cooler etc. The lifejackets would never be used for a person.

If you cut the bladder of a scrap lifejacket and retain the mechanism and some of the bladder for sealing purposes, you may be able to configure a way of using it and the cylinder to inflate an avon.

Or when you throw away your lifejackets, cut out and keep the pieces and put them in your grab bag to top up your liferaft (I have seen many of the useless hand pumps supplied in a liferaft).

I am not very green at all, but making use out of scrap is feasible and I know I think in an unusal manner compared to the majority, but I consider that a gift.

Obviously not one of my better thoughts.

Last I heard, the seabin
http://seabinproject.com/
was being used by marina electricity instead of a leisure battery and a solar panel and windturbine. I consider that a waste too (of mains ) electricity that could be saved.

Thanks for the indulgence.

Stay on board and buy some Drain Tracing Dye Fluorescein and make a pouch to insert into your GOOD in-date lifejackets. (in my opinion and with all credit to Sarabande)

Sorry to have caused moderators hassle and taken up their time. I will be a lot more careful in future as I have learned a lot. (about posting on a forum, in case anyone is in doubt about what I mean)

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Interesting; not heard of that. Presumably there’s an exemption for acid contained in a battery? And does it apply only to sulphuric acid, or any?

Last time I needed to clean some metal I bought a bottle of concentrated HCl quite cheaply via eBay, so the idea of cutting into old batteries to extract some grubby second-hand acid has limited appeal.

Pete

More info here and it includes oxalic acid but I assume in powder form is ok, it's when it's made up it must be lower then 10% w/w. (Might be worth starting a thread about it Or PBO doing an article)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-home-users-of-explosives-precursors/licensing-for-home-users-of-poisons-and-explosive-precursors

Yes batteries are classed as an unit/item so exempt. A pain for me as we sell batteries with acid packs (motorcycles), it means we'll have to fill them before we can sell them and on some batteries they have to be open for an hour.

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/2018/06/imp...nge-the-way-motorcycle-batteries-can-be-sold/

The thing with harvesting acid from scrap batteries is most of the acid has sulphated on the lead leaving a very weak solution.

It's all down to these acid attacks but it'll not stop them buying a bag of caustic soda from B&Q...

 

[bitbaltic]

No need to apologise to me. I was upset this morning when I read how my post had caused you to feel. So please accept my apologies. Cheers.

 

[Sailingsaves]

No need to apologise to me. I was upset this morning when I read how my post had caused you to feel. So please accept my apologies. Cheers.

Cheers to you too. My apology stands; I am overly sensitive of late. As said, I have learned a lot and isn't Sarabande's idea brilliant? Pun intended if you look at the colour of the sea in an image I found somewhere of the dye in action.

 

[ShinyShoe]

You are on my ignore list for a previous rude comment some time ago and I have found that leopards do not change their spots, but I opened your post out of curiosity.

Really...

Your post has taught me 2 things:

You are still rude.
You are not as intelligent as others that understood what I posted.

The lounge is creeping into PBO.

Your rudeness was highlighting: ** "I have a lot to learn". **

Lack of intelligence was because you did not realise what I meant by it, but thought I meant I had a lot to learn about nautical things. I am quite confident that I need to learn less than you in that regard.

ROFL... ...I understood what you intended it to mean.

I posted something that could have been useful or at least thought provoking - Sarabande has just taught some people something - to save scrapping useful (I find them useful even if others cannot think of uses) life jackets. If you don't like, you don't need to be rude.

But was it useful? Was it though provoking? I must have missed the string of people saying "fabulous suggestion - off to put my old lifejackets on the stern rail"...

How many people have simply thrown away lead acid batteries without taking the sulphuric (I prefer the UK spelling) acid out? How many people have not even thought of taking it out? My post was for them too. Useful stuff is acid if one is as practical as I am and working on metal and all sorts. Let a battery settle and it comes out colourless and clear; not grubby.

Which was an entirely unconnected thread from the linked URL. Random is the only word that comes to mind. I have considered if I'd every drain the acid. I concluded it was a dangerous procedure.

Your post makes NO reference to the acid - only your web page.

The comments about grubbiness was not mine.

But if someone needs some strong acid to make their copper pipe shiny, I don't think its as bonkers an idea as carrying expired Life Jackets for the imaginary crew you don't sail with.

Also, you posted drivel in the last paragraph.

I have never written off a lifejacket. I was given a Hammar device on its own to investigate out of curiosity and upon rebuilding it I then thought of a use for it. Creating a seal was the most difficult part. Still it only cost me a bit of glue and time and not £75 and I learned a lot.

For clarity you wrote

I have already taken the Hammar device from an expired lj and used it and an old buoyancy bag (folded up) to attach to my catamaran dinghy (as the proper inflatable ones cost more than the parts I had and my time).

So you took a lifejacket and rendered it no longer use-able as a lifejacket. The common language use of "write off" means damaged beyond repair. Are you suggesting the lifejacket can be realistically restored to its former function? I was NOT criticising your use as a mast float.

"A jonbouy out of date", what are you on about? I would never waste £299. Did you read the posts?

I did. Perhaps the "you" was meant in a wider context of the reader - whomever they may be.

You then wrote:
There is a difference between a device to stop your capsized cat turning turtle and being an even bigger ball ache to right (if you sail with safety cover - its avoiding a ballache, if you sail without you might need to call for help >> but assuming you are suited up and have the means to call for help you are probably not going to die.

What is that all about? It hardly makes sense. I made a device out of scrap items to stop an inversion. I don't get ball-ache from sailing. Or are you saying an inflating device at masthead can create a ball-ache? Very unclear. I have never capsized by accident.

You sail a cat. You presumably are aware that if you capsize it, then it will be an absolute nightmare to re-right if it inverts. That is afterall why you build a float. I'm not knocking that decision. That I actually think was quite smart. (Although perhaps no smarter than just attaching the inflated buoyancy bag). But if your device fails. The hanmar fails to fire for instance (there must have been a reason it was no longer considered a viable lifejacket) - you end up with your cat upside down and you on top of it using your VHF with your custom built aerial to summon help. But you shouldn't die. That is what I'd call a ball ache.

In a buoyant box I always carry a handheld, emergency vhf aerial with adapter (because I KNOW - having tested them - that stubby aerials are poor, an anchor, paddles on a cat and oars on a dinghy, flares and a mobile 'phone plus other sundries. With my business partner we used to make emergency vhf aerials out of scrap bits left over and they sold for £40 or £20 to a yacht chandler (who sold them for £40). Good aerial and yacht chandler wanted more, but we got fed up of making them by hand.

Not sure what your point is...?

Don't bother replying to me, because I won't open the ignore message this time. I had to take 25mg of diazepan after I was first 'attacked' and told they could hardly think of a more silly idea, although the poster settled down later and sounded more reasonable. Strange that physical attacks never bothered me (in one of the jobs I had), but as I age, these verbals ones do.

Sorry - it doesn't work like that for me. You have publically launched into me for telling you the idea that you presumably posted wanting input is rubbish - so I have a right to defend myself publically. You have a right to ignore me.

When his lifejackets with their personal locators etc are out of date, I wonder what he will do with his life jackets. He says his current ones won't store enough add-on equipment.

Who he?
I certainly didn't say that?

Made me wonder if pockets could not be sewn onto the outside?

My PLB is on a pouch on the waist belt of my LJ. No sewing required - just a belt loop.

Discovery is seeing what everyone sees, but thinking what no one else has thought.

Mmmm... but thinking up a solution that is flawed doesn't seem like a discovery. There was afterall a reason you didn't want to use the expired lifejacket as a lifejacket... so it shouldn't be a piece of life saving equipment. Saving your tool box - fine. Avoiding a turtled dinghy - fine. If it fails you'll be p***ed off but alive. Using it as a cheapskate dan buoy -- if it fails you might be more the p***ed.