“Production boat” for ARC

[eddystone]

Looking at a boat to do the ARC this year if we can get it all together.
Basically looking at 40-42’ “production boat” for 4+ crew. However the boat would be likely to stay in the Caribbean for my daughter to live on/ do some skippered chartering so would need charter rather than “owner” layout.
The budget, taking into account refit costs would allow for an early 2000s “production “ type boat (the type that salty brits say you can’t safely sail outside a marina but other Europeans manage to do quite adventurous things in!)
Most immediately looking at a Bavaria 42 (1999) and a couple of Dufour 40 Performances a few years younger. I would be interested in any known weaknesses particularly in the rudder stock/bearings department given this seems to have been at the root of a number of ARC incidents.

 

[davethedog]

Plenty of the types of boats you are looking at do the east to west crossing so as long as the boat is well prepared it should be fine. Things like a hydrovane etc would be a good addition of course.

Coming back across (west to east) is a different proposition.

 

[flaming]

Looking at a boat to do the ARC this year if we can get it all together.
Basically looking at 40-42’ “production boat” for 4+ crew. However the boat would be likely to stay in the Caribbean for my daughter to live on/ do some skippered chartering so would need charter rather than “owner” layout.
The budget, taking into account refit costs would allow for an early 2000s “production “ type boat (the type that salty brits say you can’t safely sail outside a marina but other Europeans manage to do quite adventurous things in!)
Most immediately looking at a Bavaria 42 (1999) and a couple of Dufour 40 Performances a few years younger. I would be interested in any known weaknesses particularly in the rudder stock/bearings department given this seems to have been at the root of a number of ARC incidents.

Dad had a Dufour performance 40 for a while, only sold due to health reasons.
Awesome boat. No huge weaknesses that I was aware of, never heard of any rudder issues either, but then he bought new in 2005 and sold in 2017, so how they're holding up since I wouldn't know. We didn't do any Ocean stuff, but cruised a lot and lived aboard for months at a time. Compared to other 40ish foot cruising boats from the era she has less volume, but makes up with this with a good turn of speed, especially upwind.

 

[eddystone]

Dad had a Dufour performance 40 for a while, only sold due to health reasons.
Awesome boat. No huge weaknesses that I was aware of, never heard of any rudder issues either, but then he bought new in 2005 and sold in 2017, so how they're holding up since I wouldn't know. We didn't do any Ocean stuff, but cruised a lot and lived aboard for months at a time. Compared to other 40ish foot cruising boats from the era she has less volume, but makes up with this with a good turn of speed, especially upwind.

That's what I had heard about the Dufour. Expect the Bavaria of that vintage to be less good to sail but solid. Mentioned the rudder because I seem to remember Hanse boats of that vintage had an aluminium rather than stainless stock.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Had a '99 Bav36 and now an '08 Bav 44 Vision. Both solid boats, in 14 years never needed to do anything to either of them regarding the rudder. Ex-charter boats almost certainly have experienced rudder damage at some point, budget for pulling the rudder, replacing the bearings and check the blade for water ingress - same as any boat with a fiberglass rudder.

I watched a charter crew reverse a 50ft Bav onto a beach in Sivota in 2005, when the rudder made contact with the bottom, the boat stopped dead, everyone on deck fell over and the bow lifted high enough out of the water to see the bow thruster. Once they had all gathered their senses, they motored off and found a berth elsewhere. I passed the boat tied up later that evening and although there was obvious gel-coat damage to the rudder tip, everything still seemed to work, and they were still afloat and carried on with their charter the following day.

Don't over-think the issue IMO. A Bavaria from that era in good condition will do what you want it to. Buy a 40-50 year old floating brick because you don't want a spade rudder and it will be just a different set of issues, mostly to do with rot, corrosion, osmosis and other hidden and difficult to get at problems which can be as, if not more risky than a spade rudder.

 

[OrangeOily]

Who is your target market for charter guests? If Americans, you'll need air-conditioning and lots of freezer space to make ice.

 

[Tranona]

Looking at a boat to do the ARC this year if we can get it all together.
Basically looking at 40-42’ “production boat” for 4+ crew. However the boat would be likely to stay in the Caribbean for my daughter to live on/ do some skippered chartering so would need charter rather than “owner” layout.
The budget, taking into account refit costs would allow for an early 2000s “production “ type boat (the type that salty brits say you can’t safely sail outside a marina but other Europeans manage to do quite adventurous things in!)
Most immediately looking at a Bavaria 42 (1999) and a couple of Dufour 40 Performances a few years younger. I would be interested in any known weaknesses particularly in the rudder stock/bearings department given this seems to have been at the root of a number of ARC incidents.

Maybe a coincidence but yesterday I was reading a 2010 article in Sailing Today about a Bav 46 doing the ARC. This was in the day when it was possible to do it as a charter boat and Sailionian did it more than once in their Bav which was one of their Levkas charter boats. 7 paying crew. No real issues with the boat and about £10k of extra gear but no big mods.

Almost all production boats have aluminium stocks and the Hanse failures were very specific and not systemic. The early 2000s Bav 42 is an excellent boat. It is common now to replace the rudder bearings with roler bearings from Jefa. Not a big job in the scheme of things. Challenge will be finding one in the UK with hot weather gear. Plenty in the eastern Med.

Edit Decent looking one for sale here yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/bavaria-yachts-42-cruiser-for-sale/792754 4 cabin and good gear

 

[capnsensible]

A good friend of mine has a Jenneau 45 that was used for the ops plan. But the yacht....and him.....are older now. I can testify to it's transat capability....I've taken her over to the Windies twice.

However, local laws are understandably changing to protect local businesses and whilst possible, it may be a long challenge to get onside with each islands permit systems.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I had a Dufour 40 for about 5 years, not the performance version but the shallow keel option (which might be quite useful in the Bahamas).
I never had any problems with the mast or deck gear, but the production sails didn't last long.
I sailed the boat quite hard, up and down the West coast of Scotland and down the East Coast. One trip up to Shetland and several around Orkney.
the boat was quite tender (reef early), fast and seaworthy, but the internal furniture was flimsy. An IKEA style of construction, I sold it because I didn't think that the below decks construction would last. I swapped it for my current Southerly 46RS which is built like the proverbial brick outhouse, built in the same year as my Dufour.

 

[j24jam]

Have you checked to see if there is a demand for skippered charter on a 20 year old boat out there?

 

[eddystone]

The skippered charter was just my daughters idea - I think she had in mind marine Air BnB! In my experience charterers want a 45' catamaran party boat. I think we've "downgraded" that part of the brief - but she would want to stay in the Caribbean after the ARC - the important think is suitability for Atlantic crossing, both ways in case better to return it to UK prior to sale.

Looking at some boats this week. I've been on a Dufour 40 and I wouldn't say it was IKEAish, well certainly not compared to modern Sun Odyssey/Oceanis. Southerly/HR/Malo/Najad/Contest etc definitely not in our budget as not interested in 40 year old boat.

 

[HunterWanderer]

Why not buy one already there?
Saves VAT and a lot of hassle
https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2004-bavaria-44-9672520/

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Quote "Looking at some boats this week. I've been on a Dufour 40 and I wouldn't say it was IKEAish, well certainly not compared to modern Sun Odyssey/Oceanis"
My coment was more about the construction method. The bunk sides had tendons machined with curved edges. The mortis in the bunk base was a routed slot with curved ends. They were pushed together, after varnishing, so the only parts which was an interference fit, 4 corners. All OK to begin with but the soon started to move a squeak.
The forward bulk head in the saloon, fitted into a slot moulded into the deckhead. No adhesive or sealant, just a dry slot in. Very quick to build, could see the deckhead flex under load and move relative to the bulkhead.
It gave the impression of being designed to slot together, like a flat pack.

 

[Dockhead]

The ARC is a milk run, downhill, predictable weather, so whatever boat you fancy will be fine.

The main challenge is storage of provisions and tankage, and light mass production boats are often short on both, but you can make up for it with canisters and creative stowing.

Of course you have to get the boat into good condition as you can't call an engineer out there. Plenty of tools and spares. But the ARC folks will coach you on that -- that's part of the program.

 

[capnsensible]

An East west crossing of the Atlantic is not the so called milk run that some people think in my experience.

 

[Halo]

An East west crossing of the Atlantic is not the so called milk run that some people think in my experience.

Totally agree. It’s a very long way. After 3 days we hardly got anywhere due to light winds and the computer said it was going to take us 3 months! We had a large swell coming down from the North for a long time causing a big roll in the boat for days on end. At very least you need a robust mental attitude and practical problem solving skills

 

[ashtead]

I don’t know if the OP attended the event at Berthon last weekend so apologies if they did but I gather a wide variety of boats on show in ARC event plus a variety of visitors with varying degrees of experience. I guess future like events will occur. It would seem to me that you need to consider what you would like to have once you have arrived in St Lucia etc but as I guess you would spend much time out there in cockpit I would be looking for space there in cockpit and cabins and space for kit -a rustler 42 might be ideal for crossing but on arrival a jeaneau might make a lot more sense. In terms of returning you might find it better to pay the £15 or so k and have shipped back. If one was for sail a lifting keel yacht might make sense if voyaging to shallow islands of Bermuda etc.

 

[geem]

I don’t know if the OP attended the event at Berthon last weekend so apologies if they did but I gather a wide variety of boats on show in ARC event plus a variety of visitors with varying degrees of experience. I guess future like events will occur. It would seem to me that you need to consider what you would like to have once you have arrived in St Lucia etc but as I guess you would spend much time out there in cockpit I would be looking for space there in cockpit and cabins and space for kit -a rustler 42 might be ideal for crossing but on arrival a jeaneau might make a lot more sense. In terms of returning you might find it better to pay the £15 or so k and have shipped back. If one was for sail a lifting keel yacht might make sense if voyaging to shallow islands of Bermuda etc.

I think your info for shipping back is well out of date. A couple we know had their 42ft Jen shipped back last year. £26,000.
We enjoyed the sail back spending 2. 5 months in the Azores.

 

[Laser310]

An East west crossing of the Atlantic is not the so called milk run that some people think in my experience.

I have done that crossing four times, and have also done a study using 15 years of Euro model ERA-5 Reanalysis data.

In fact, conditions are much more variable than people guess. In particular, the frequency of (non-tropical) lows affecting the route; causing quite high winds in some locations and quite low winds in others is surprisingly high. In addition, we see periods of a week to two or more weeks of either systematically low trade winds or systematically enhanced trade winds. Tropical Lows are not unheard of during the time of the ARC; I encountered a named tropical storm in December on one of my crossings. Although we were reasonably far from the storm, it was probably largely responsible for a fatality on a boat nearby.

another thing that varies a lot is the frequency and intensity of squalls. These are much more common, particularly at night, the farther west one gets. Two of my crossings had relatively few squalls, but one had quite intense squalls night after night near the end. The winds in these squalls can exceed 40kts for short periods. It was really tiring on the crew. The chance of equipment breakage, or even injury is high.

I would not do it on a 25 year old Bavaria, but maybe that's just me...

my advice is: buy a better boat, or find a ride with someone else on a better boat.

 

[capnsensible]

6 times each way. Had all sorts and I never relied in stats. Planned for most eventualities though.

Nice variety of yachts, mono and multi. Even pants weather didn't stop the joy of being out there.....