£500 fine for flying Cornish etc ensign

[TamarMike]

In UK waters wearing a home country's flag probable gives more useful information about the boat and its owner than a proper ensign, however if a club burgee is also flown then I believe the correct ensign should be flown, with a national or regional flag at the starboard crostrees if desired (I must put my hand up as guilty here though as on my previous boat, which was an old working boat with fishing numbers, I usually flew our club burgee but only wore an ensign on special occasions, regattas etc).

The "Cornish Ensign" with a union flag superimposed in the corner does seem a superfluous (and probably illegal) variant to me.

A flag's purpose is after all to either convey a message or look pretty so a skipper can make his own decision so long as it is neither misleading or illegal.

 

[Colvic Watson]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really feel very British

[/ QUOTE ] Is there anything we can do to help?




The British ensign isn't an English ensign, it's British. It's sole purpose is to identify the yacht as British. The use of a pretend ensign is a retreat into narrow corners defined by small geographical and ethnic criteria.

 

[matelot]

[ QUOTE ]
What an unnecessary post in a thread like this. Ocklepoint was simply pointing out that many Scots sailors are happy with both their national identity and their membership of the EU. The 'ensign' that OP flies represents this. It does not make him - or anyone else who flies that flag - anti-English.


[/ QUOTE ]

No- what he said was that many Scots werent happy with their British national identity preferring their regional Scottish identity and wanting to "move on" from the Union. Fair enough. I agree with him. I simply pointed out that it wasnt the rest of us keeping Scotland in the union as any number of polls have found English and Welsh support for Scots independance as high as 68% in favour.

The existence of anti English sentiment in Scotland is generally accepted and you can see it everywhere from the common reference to the "auld enemy", to Scots support for any sports team playing against England, to street violence in Scotland against people with English accents etc. Scots identity seems as much established by who they arent as who they are - but thats a Scottish problem.

An unnecessary post? I dont agree. The ensign is all about your nationality and flying another flag says something about what you think of it. So Ockle Point was absolutely correct when he raised the issue of nationality. All I've done is respond in kind. And incidentally I usually fly the Welsh Dragon!

 

[dam747iam]

does anybody know what the union flag with a white border is

 

[Twister_Ken]

"does anybody know what the union flag with a white border is"

Not sure of its name, but it seems to be reserved exclusively for the bows of RN ships, when parked.

Here's what the Andrew says about it:

"The national flag of the United Kingdom is worn as a Jack at the bow by all HM ships in commission when alongside or when 'dressed overall'. This is the only occasion when it is correctly called the Union Jack, although it is generally known by this name through common usage. It is also flown during Courts Martial and is the Distinguishing Flag of an Admiral of the Fleet."

 

[Refueler]

I'm with Simon on this ... I don't understand this divide the UK wish.
Oh so many do't want to divide up the UK ? So what is the point then ? As another says fly the national Ensign and your own 'flag' if you must.

I'm English and proud to say I am - but I do not insist on flying St. G flag.

Trying to think of others who argue their patch of ground with flags ... Southern USA, but that's a collection of 'recognised' states anyway ... Basque - but bullets tend to fly with that ....

mmmmmm makes one wonder.

 

[absit_omen]

A Pilot Jack - to be flown at the stem.

 

[MarkJohnson12345]

Agree with you Simon on this one.

 

[catmandoo]

I am Scottish but I fly the red ensign and my reason is history .

In the last hundred years or so ships from all over Britain have flown this flag and once our merchant navy sailed all over the world with it .


Why should I want to Change . I am British and proud of it

Some people with inferiority complexes would cut off their own dicks just to be different

 

[TamarMike]

[ QUOTE ]
A Pilot Jack - to be flown at the stem.

[/ QUOTE ]

...not used to request a pilot for very many years (Victorian or Edwardian times perhaps?)and may be flown by any vessel, the RN use the Union Jack (no border). Some of the few remaining larger British registered vessels fly the home flag (Scottish or Welsh) of their master at the jackstaff, old photographs show more extensive use of the Pilot Jack on passenger vessels.

 

[Marmalade]

I am Hornblower
I am Bolitho
I am Aubrey, Nelson and Collingwood
I am a Brit - and I wear the red duster

To each; his own

 

[mikemonty]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with Simon on this ... I don't understand this divide the UK wish.


[/ QUOTE ]
This thread still going?
Well here's a lightweight example symptomatic of the general attitude/ignorance...
National news from one of the other channels didn't notice which - young non-caucasian lady presenting weather - going on in the background during dinner last night.
Weather lady says "WE will have a nice day tomorrow - high pressure dont'cha know".
Mike perks up to take a look at the chart thinking "oh gooood!"
Turns out WE covers everywhere SOUTH of Scotch Corner. Scotland is obscured by rain symbols.
Unless the definition of "We" and / or "nice day" have changed then "We" does not include Scotland.
This one is obviously a minor irritation, but the attitude pervades much English thinking, "We" stops at the borders.

This is off-subject but I think there is a misunderstanding about what the Scottish disaffection for England is.
(NOT dislike, NOT resentment, Matelot)

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
many Scots sailors are happy with both their national identity and their membership of the EU. The 'ensign' that OP flies represents this.

[/ QUOTE ]This is very typical of the trend developing across the EU presently. You will see very many 'defaced' EU ensigns on yachts in the Med. These are sailors who are very comfortable with being European at the same time as they have a very strong national identity. It is not a contradiction. I am sure this insight will eventually lead to British sailors flying the EU flag with their Cornish/English/Wales/Scotland etcetera defacing flag. It is a natural development and the proliferation of regional ensigns show that we are already going down that path.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope I am long gone and buried before that rag of blue with stars on it replaces the Red Ensign. I stand with many others who are NOT European Unionists - I stand with Patriotism, not Nationalism. Flying Scots Saltire, Cornish whatever, St. Georges ... etc. smacks of nationalism which is IMHO definitely not wanted. I believe in the National Ensign and Identity of whichever country it may be.

 

[Judders]

[ QUOTE ]
The Cornish 'ensign' is a real saddo in my book. Why don't we all have one, like say for Dorset or Hertfordshire or go really nuts and have one for Chipping Sodbury or Claggy Bottom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite simply because in the 5000 year history of Cornwall, it has only been considered part of England for about four hundred years. Cornwall and the Cornish have a strong personal national identity which for some reason, the English are incredibly uncomfortable with. The same is simply not true of Dorset or Hertfordshire which are simply English counties born out of baronial administration or less.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
............strong personal national identity...........

[/ QUOTE ]

When was Cornwall a Nation ? I can't find any reference ....

 

[absit_omen]

The last time I saw a Pilot Jack flown was about three weeks ago - on the Mersey ferry! True.

 

[philip_stevens]

[ QUOTE ]
When was Cornwall a Nation ? I can't find any reference ....

[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.cornishstannaryparliament.co.uk/

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
Quite simply because in the 5000 year history of Cornwall, it has only been considered part of England for about four hundred years. Cornwall and the Cornish have a strong personal national identity which for some reason, the English are incredibly uncomfortable with. The same is simply not true of Dorset or Hertfordshire which are simply English counties born out of baronial administration or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah so Cornwall has been English for as long as the USA has existed, quite long enough to get used to it I would have thought!

The facts are unchanged, the Cornish thingy is just that, it is not a legal ensign. If you wish it to be a legal ensign then lobby for a law change and it's acceptance, otherwise fly it as a house flag or use it as a tablecloth.

We have a very large St George's Cross with the Poole emblem in one corner but wouldn't dream of wearing it as an ensign but we do fly it with our house flag up the forestay as a battle flag, most often these days as we no longer race when we see some pillock with a dodgy ensign on display. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread still going?
Well here's a lightweight example symptomatic of the general attitude/ignorance...
National news from one of the other channels didn't notice which - young non-caucasian lady presenting weather - going on in the background during dinner last night.
Weather lady says "WE will have a nice day tomorrow - high pressure dont'cha know".
Mike perks up to take a look at the chart thinking "oh gooood!"
Turns out WE covers everywhere SOUTH of Scotch Corner. Scotland is obscured by rain symbols.
Unless the definition of "We" and / or "nice day" have changed then "We" does not include Scotland.
This one is obviously a minor irritation, but the attitude pervades much English thinking, "We" stops at the borders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whereas we who live just about as far south as we can get have to listen to a Scots lady giving a forecast that goes so far north it is almost off the map! We live 65mls from France and 500mls from Scotland, we are actually nearer to France than to London let alone Glasgow So I can understand your irritation if you can understand mine! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Norman_E]

I am with you on this. My own father sailed under the Red Ensign in the 1920's, so I am proud to be able to wear one on my boat. I do not object if Scots or Welsh want to have a national flag on their boat, but they should wear the Red Ensign, and place their country flag at the port spreader, with a courtesy flag at the starboard spreader when in foreign waters.

As for EU flags and "ensigns" I think anyone possessing them should be shot on sight. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif