£500 fine for flying Cornish etc ensign

[Drascomber]

I am told that the fine for flying an invalid flag as an ensign e.g. EU Flag, Saltire, Cornish flag etc is £500.

If this is true, does any one know of any real case where a yachtie has actually been prosecuted?

 

[Beadle]

I don't know is the honest answer, but I suspect that it is true about being illegal, most things are nowadays.

Perhaps best dealt with by addressing the peaked cap in broken English that you are Outer Mongolian and want political asylum. They will probably pay you the £500.

Its really not something I would worry about.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Why would you want to replace the ensign? It bugs me that we seem to be the only nation ashamed of its own collective identity. Fly a local flag, but fly an ensign as well. This country has a fine tradition of tolerance, innovation and defence of the weak. We get it wrong, but by God when it counts, we often get it right as well. Our collective British identity counts for something, we are capable of being individual yet at the same time part of a wider diverse body of people. It's not jingoism to fly a national ensign, in a very small way it's putting yourself in a bigger picture than just the few square miles of Britain that you can bear to be proud of.

 

[Kilter]

I fly a red ensign and then hoist the local flag as a courtesy ensign. No-one has complained and many seem to enjoy the compliment.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Thats exactly what we'd do too Kilter....

 

[TrueBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
I am told that the fine for flying an invalid flag as an ensign e.g. EU Flag, Saltire, Cornish flag etc is £500.

If this is true, does any one know of any real case where a yachtie has actually been prosecuted?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ages since there was thread on Ensigns to I looked up the Merchant Shipping Act 1995; here's an extract:-

[ QUOTE ]
4 Penalty for carrying improper colours (1) If any of the following colours, namely—
(a) any distinctive national colours except—
(i) the red ensign,
(ii) the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or
(iii) any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(b); or
(b) any colours usually worn by Her Majesty’s ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or
(c) the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty’s ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,
are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine.
(3) If any colours are hoisted on board a ship in contravention of subsection (1) above, any of the following, namely—
(a) any commissioned naval or military officer,
(b) any officer of customs and excise, and
(c) any British consular officer,
may board the ship and seize and take away the colours.
(4) Any colours seized under subsection (3) above shall be forfeited to Her Majesty.
(5) In this section “colours” includes any pendant.


[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that the flag has to be "national colours", and as Cornwall has yet to achieve that status (however richly deserved), the flag of St.P. hasn't reached that status.

I also suspect that the flag has to be seized by an appropriate officer (above) probably as evidence (?) As the prosecution is to be in a Magistrates' court it is not likely to be something that you can Google.

I haven't heard of any actual prosecution. If the "offence" is committed in coastal waters, I can't see anyone official being bothered to chase you, seize your flag, and take you to court.

There's always the first time of course....

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

Simon...... your'e full of that stuff we don't mention on the Forum. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[timbartlett]

You're way under!!
I've just looked it up, and the fine for wearing some other country's ensign can be anything up to £50,000.
The fine for wearing the wrong British ensign (such as a white or blue without a warrant) is "the statutory maximum" (which I think is £5000).

But UK yachts under 50 registered tons are not *required* to wear an ensign while in in UK waters.

The problem with the EU ensign is that it has the relevant national flag in the corner -- so the UKEU ensign looks like a defaced Blue Ensign, which could cop you a £5000 fine.

AFAIK, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Ulster and the EU are not regarded as "Nations", so their flags are not "National colours", so wearing them is not illegal -- though you might get lynched by any passing BNP supporters (or given a very nasty look by UKIP)

The problem with the England flag is that it looks like an RN Admiral's flag, so in theory I suppose you could get done for impersonating a naval officer, while the Scottish flag looks like code flag M, and could be seen as a request for medical assistance.

Cornish and Welsh are probably OK.

But why not save yourself the worry, and put them at the starboard spreader?

It was fun looking it up, though!
Bon voyages

 

[Fascadale]

This will play well in my part of the world where many of us are proud of our collective Scottish identity but not so happy with a UK identity.

I always find it strange that so many who are so happy with the union that is the modern United Kingdom are so unhappy with the union that is the modern Europe.

And yes I know we should be proud to sail under a flag beneath which many of our forefathers served and died, but I don't think that is entirely relevant to to-days world.

If you are happy to fly the flag of the old Union, by all means do so, but let the rest of us move on.

 

[absit_omen]

[ QUOTE ]
But UK yachts under 50 registered tons are not *required* to wear an ensign while in in UK waters.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, logically, if we are not required to wear an ensign in home waters then we can fly anything we like (as we are not 'replacing' the ensign with anything else - as there is no requirement to wear an ensign!).

We can fly St P, Saltire, Disneyland, a pair of Long Johns or nothing at all - whatever we choose.

Logically. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[NormanS]

Re Hedwig
Quote:

<span style="color:blue"> </span> AFAIK, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Ulster and the EU are not regarded as "Nations", so their flags are not "National colours", so wearing them is not illegal -- though you might get lynched by any passing BNP supporters (or given a very nasty look by UKIP)

The problem with the England flag is that it looks like an RN Admiral's flag, so in theory I suppose you could get done for impersonating a naval officer, while the Scottish flag looks like code flag M, and could be seen as a request for medical assistance.
<span style="color:blue"> </span>
I note that you exclude England from your list of non-nations. Do you have a reason?

Also please note that the Scottish Saltire is a white cross on a sky blue background, and as such would only be mistaken for code flag M, by the colour blind, or the ignorant.

I am very happy to wear my country's flag, and am one of the increasing band of Scots to do so. Obviously, I cannot fly it at the starboard crosstrees, as that would signify that I was a visitor.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are happy to fly the flag of the old Union, by all means do so, but let the rest of us move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

And as far as possible, preferably leaving behind the subsidies we pay from our small part of the UNITED KINGDOM.

 

[photodog]

I cant help but think that the quickest way to ferment a revolution and get rid of our current regime, would be to attempt to hand out £5000 fines in Cornwall for flying the "Wrong" ensign.... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[philip_stevens]

A variation of that flag has the fifteen bezants in the diagonally lower quarter.

Onen hag oll.

 

[alec]

[ QUOTE ]
This will play well in my part of the world where many of us are proud of our collective Scottish identity but not so happy with a UK identity.

I always find it strange that so many who are so happy with the union that is the modern United Kingdom are so unhappy with the union that is the modern Europe.

And yes I know we should be proud to sail under a flag beneath which many of our forefathers served and died, but I don't think that is entirely relevant to to-days world.

If you are happy to fly the flag of the old Union, by all means do so, but let the rest of us move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

A very odd and bizarre post may I say.

Very enlightening though .

Do many Scots feel like this ?

 

[alec]

[ QUOTE ]
I am told that the fine for flying an invalid flag as an ensign e.g. EU Flag, Saltire, Cornish flag etc is £500.

If this is true, does any one know of any real case where a yachtie has actually been prosecuted?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have to ask ourselves ' what does flying a flag mean to us each individually '.
For me, I suppose I am playing at being a sailor so I fly one. I do think that flags look a bit jaunty though and I like it. Most of the time I forget to put my Red Ensign up.

Round the coastlines I think we should fly any flag we like providing it is in good taste and not another country's flag.. I very much like the idea of flying the 'local' flag at the cross trees.

I detest any flag ( The Blue Ensign in particular) that is limited for no particular reason . I would very much like to hear from people who do fly this flag so I can more fully understand why they do so. I might learn something.

Back to your original point. I think it very unlikely that any of us would get a a fine. I would expect that most flag regs are targeted toward commercial and naval ships where this is very important.

 

[philip_stevens]

[ QUOTE ]
I moored the Tilikum near a boat-landing and reported our arrival to the British Consul, Mr. Williams. This gentleman showed much interest in my cruise and accompanied me to the harbour to inspect my boat. " Well done" he said, when stepping aboard ; " crossing the three great oceans in this vessel certainly constitutes a world's record "

The following day, while I was in the Consul's office, Mr Williams said, "Yesterday, when on board of your vessel, I noticed that you are flying the Canadian flag.
I must tell you that this is against the law. I am, there-fore, obliged to ask you to replace it by the British ensign."

I had sailed the Tilikum for three years under the Canadian flag, and therefore I did not altogether appreciate the Consul's order. However, orders from the Government
representative given to shipmasters in foreign countries must be complied with, so from that day I flew the British flag.

[/ QUOTE ]

An extract from The Venturesome Voyages of Captain Voss.

"I know, it is the Canadian flag, but....

It is a book worth reading.

 

[mikemonty]

[ QUOTE ]

A very odd and bizarre post may I say.

Very enlightening though .

Do many Scots feel like this ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming my humour detector ain't broke - its this lack of awareness (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on patronising) that makes many Scots feel like this!

 

[absit_omen]

I generally use the red as it is cheaper to replace.

When in the mood I use the defaced blue of my old regiment (membership of the club is £15.00 pa).

I wear this as proudly as I do my regimental tie.

I see nothing detestable about this.

 

[Colvic Watson]

[ QUOTE ]
Simon...... your'e full of that stuff we don't mention on the Forum. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ] Did you mean bull [--word removed--]?

There you go, you're right, it seems we don't mention it.