YM Elan 360 boat test

Polux said:
Yes, I agree, in what regards storage space but not in what regards a conservative way to look at hull shape. Most around those parts still look beamy boats with large transoms less safe boats.
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The review didn't criticise the hull shape, though it did note, quite reasonably, that a 2.35m draught can restrict harbour options and twin rudders can make manoeuvring under power trickier. I see no evidence to support your claim that most people here think modern shapes are less safe - some of us certainly think they are less pretty, but that's a wholly different matter. Snooks' criticisms (and I am jumping in to defend him because I thought it was an excellent review) were on detailed matters, every single one of which could be done fine on a modern hull shape but weren't in this place.

In other words, I think you are mistaken to say that Snooks and the 25,000 people who pay to read his reviews are simply biassed against beamy boats with large ransoms. He and they and I may be a bit unimpressed by a putative cruising boat with inadequate deck lockers, though.
 
snooks said:
Ok let's look at the Pogo 30 (as it's in production) and compare it to the Elan I tested. Masses more stowage, both "galley" and chart table have fiddles and both can be used at sea using the table to brace on. The cockpit has many more places to brace, sit and steer from.

Better?

@polux Have you actually been on the Elan 360? I'm guessing not. .

...
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No, I have been on the 350 that it is practically the same boat but for what you say it seems that it is you that had not been on a Pogo 30. Suggesting that a Pogo 30 has a better galley more suited for offshore sailing or that it has more storage space that a much bigger boat like the Elan 360 just does not make any sense, as does not make sense to test generically a sailboat (Elan 360) and ignore the other versions of the same boat in what regards draft or interior division (two or three cabins).

The Elan 360 has a galley full of holding points, a L shape one while the Pogo has a small space for preparing food, without any back support. The Galley from the Pogo 30 has very little storage space and a very tiny refrigerator when compared with the Elan 360.
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Regards storage space, besides the central locker on the back of the cockpit, good for the life-raft and eventually fenders the two cabin version of the Elan 360 (the one obviously one would chose to sail offshore) has a very deep and big lateral locker with access from the cockpit plus an excellent and rare wet suit big locker inside. The Pogo 30 has a much smaller central locker on the back of the cockpit, no other locker on the outside and an open storage space (only accessible from the interior) that incorporates the head and that serves as wet locker and storage space, all in all a much smaller storage area. The fact that the space is not divided and include everything seems to have given the idea (assuming you have been inside a Pogo 30) that space is bigger when in fact all considered is much smaller.

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Polux said:
No, I have been on the 350 that it is practically the same boat but for what you say it seems that it is you that had not been on a Pogo 30. Suggesting that a Pogo 30 has a better galley more suited for offshore sailing or that it has more storage space that a much bigger boat like the Elan 360 just does not make any sense, as does not make sense to test generically a sailboat (Elan 360) and ignore the other versions of the same boat in what regards draft or interior division (two or three cabins).
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Do other versions have better constructed handholds, fiddles and more deck lockers? If so, the manufacturers should perhaps have submitted one of them to a cruising magazine for testing.
 
Polux said:
No, I have been on the 350 that it is practically the same boat but for what you say it seems that it is you that had not been on a Pogo 30. Suggesting that a Pogo 30 has a better galley more suited for offshore sailing or that it has more storage space that a much bigger boat like the Elan 360 just does not make any sense, as does not make sense to test generically a sailboat (Elan 360) and ignore the other versions of the same boat in what regards draft or interior division (two or three cabins).
Click to expand...

I didn't say it was a better galley, I said it offered bracing ["and fiddles" removed I thought the pogo 30 I saw had fiddles, but it appears from the photograph I might have been mistaken] - Which is does - Food can be prepared standing or seated. An L-shaped galley (on any yacht) gives no bracing (unless there is a pole or structure where one can lean on) and on the Elan there is no work surface you can use on a port tack (one could in theory use the chart table, but without fiddles it's not really an option). The Pogo 30 offers more deck storage than the bigger Elan 360. Including storage for things like a deck brush, a boathook or outboard, which the Elan I tested didn't, and that's the point: I am there to test the boat, that boat, not use my imagination and think how much better a different version would be. When I tested the Exploration 45 I was able to see two different versions so I could write with confidence and knowledge about those two different versions. When I tested the Contest 42CS I was able to see three different layouts, therefore I can report what each one was like. I don't guess what something is going to be like, I write about how it actually is.

What happens when I don't see something and write about it? I test one version and I'm meant to magically imagine how another version works, how much storage space there is and that the layout is indeed the way it was drawn. Should I start relying on information supplied by the manufactures to write my boat tests? That's a new way of doing it...why not get them to write it for me too, and I can add my name at the end? :)

I can only test the boat (or boats) I've seen.

Polux said:
Regards storage space, besides the central locker on the back of the cockpit, good for the life-raft and eventually fenders the two cabin version of the Elan 360 (the one obviously one would chose to sail offshore) has a very deep and big lateral locker with access from the cockpit plus an excellent and rare wet suit big locker inside. The Pogo 30 has a much smaller central locker on the back of the cockpit, no other locker on the outside and an open storage space (only accessible from the interior) that incorporates the head and that serves as wet locker and storage space, all in all a much smaller storage area. The fact that the space is not divided and include everything seems to have given the idea (assuming you have been inside a Pogo 30) that space is bigger when in fact all considered is much smaller.
Click to expand...

There are no lockers in the transom of the 360 I tested. But hey, the 350 is "practically the same boat" is it not?
ScreenShot2015-01-04at144901_zpsf5c9e764.png


I can only test the boat (or boats) I've seen and I can only score the boat I'm given to test. I'm starting to think you're not reading my posts of my conclusion...."This twin aft cabin version is fine for port-hopping but not great for extended cruising; there are too many compromises. I’d happily lose an aft cabin to gain a larger heads, more deck stowage and a proper chart table" Which is basically the point you're making. I'm not disagreeing that the 6 berth version would make a better offshore cruiser - It has a permanent chart table for a start (hopefully with fiddles)...But that wasn't the version on test. Anyone reading the test can see that I thought the 8 berth version I tested was too compromised for offshore or extended cruising, but that was the boat I was given.

Showing the layout of the 6 berth version is moot point, that wasn't the boat I tested. This is:

ScreenShot2015-01-04at141716_zps32058251.png


Show me the deck storage (there's none around the quadrants...)

Show me where I can brace myself while using the chart table - not that you can without velcroing everything you want to use to it (it flips out from the area forward of the heads). Now tell me how I'm supposed to prepare food on the port tack in the galley. Just look how handy that grab rail is for the one bit of workspace at the aft end of the galley. But of course you already know this having been on the Elan 350. Tell me did the Elan 350 have a locker at the aft end of the galley that was 45 cm deep at the top and 9cm deep at the bottom - with no shelves...What exactly did you keep in that locker? :rolleyes:
 
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snooks said:
I didn't say it was a better galley, I said it offered bracing ["and fiddles" removed I thought the pogo 30 I saw had fiddles, but it appears from the photograph I might have been mistaken] - Which is does - Food can be prepared standing or seated. An L-shaped galley (on any yacht) gives no bracing (unless there is a pole or structure where one can lean on) and on the Elan there is no work surface you can use on a port tack (one could in theory use the chart table, but without fiddles it's not really an option). The Pogo 30 offers more deck storage than the bigger Elan 360. Including storage for things like a deck brush, a boathook or outboard, which the Elan I tested didn't, and that's the point: I am there to test the boat, that boat, not use my imagination and think how much better a different version would be. When I tested the Exploration 45 I was able to see two different versions so I could write with confidence and knowledge about those two different versions. When I tested the Contest 42CS I was able to see three different layouts, therefore I can report what each one was like. I don't guess what something is going to be like, I write about how it actually is.

What happens when I don't see something and write about it? I test one version and I'm meant to magically imagine how another version works, how much storage space there is and that the layout is indeed the way it was drawn. Should I start relying on information supplied by the manufactures to write my boat tests? That's a new way of doing it...why not get them to write it for me too, and I can add my name at the end? :)

I can only test the boat (or boats) I've seen.



There are no lockers in the transom of the 360 I tested. But hey, the 350 is "practically the same boat" is it not?
ScreenShot2015-01-04at144901_zpsf5c9e764.png


I can only test the boat (or boats) I've seen and I can only score the boat I'm given to test. I'm starting to think you're not reading my posts of my conclusion...."This twin aft cabin version is fine for port-hopping but not great for extended cruising; there are too many compromises. I’d happily lose an aft cabin to gain a larger heads, more deck stowage and a proper chart table" Which is basically the point you're making. I'm not disagreeing that the 6 berth version would make a better offshore cruiser - It has a permanent chart table for a start (hopefully with fiddles)...But that wasn't the version on test. Anyone reading the test can see that I thought the 8 berth version I tested was too compromised for offshore or extended cruising, but that was the boat I was given.

Showing the layout of the 6 berth version is moot point, that wasn't the boat I tested. This is:

ScreenShot2015-01-04at141716_zps32058251.png


Show me the deck storage (there's none around the quadrants...)

Show me where I can brace myself while using the chart table - not that you can without velcroing everything you want to use to it (it flips out from the area forward of the heads). Now tell me how I'm supposed to prepare food on the port tack in the galley. Just look how handy that grab rail is for the one bit of workspace at the aft end of the galley. But of course you already know this having been on the Elan 350. Tell me did the Elan 350 have a locker at the aft end of the galley that was 45 cm deep at the top and 9cm deep at the bottom - with no shelves...What exactly did you keep in that locker? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

No, my mistake, it is the 400 that have a central cockpit locker with some considerable space not the 360, that is very similar to the 350 (same hull):


But the 360, like the 350, on the three cabin version would only interest somebody that would only want to go from marina to marina or wanted the boat exclusively for racing. Anybody interested in long range cruising or offshore sailing would buy the 2 cabin version that has, besides that deep wet locker a deep and big cockpit locker, this one:
36_zps831cdcb7.jpg

Regarding not taking into consideration that in what regards the uses the boat is suited too, that does not make sense, that information is easily available to anybody, more even to a journalist. The test was about the Elan 360, not about the Elan 360 3 cabin version. It is expected that a journalist gives generic information not only about the version that is supplied to him but also about the available versions and options and their suitability.

In what concerns the galley it is not different than the one of an Arcona of a similar size, that as someone has pointed out gets always good information (justified) in what regards offshore suitability. Basically there are two types of galleys : the so called modern ones, all along the saloon, and the ones in L. It is known by all that the last are better in what regards offshore use and the Elan has one of those, with good handholds too on that area

But the bottom point was already made clear by you when you said that you do not see that boat fit for offshore use, two cabins or three cabin version. Given the outstanding stability characteristics I disagree and it seems to me, that regarding the size and the type of boat one of the best market options regarding that, obviously on the 2 cabin version. That's why 1 star out of 5 on that evaluation seemed to me unjustified. I can understand that generically the readers of YM don't see that type of boat suited for offshore use, independently of the seaworthiness and stability characteristics, even if others would disagree and there are effectively a considerably number of them using that type of boat offshore.

In what regards around the cans racing someone said the boat is not very good at it and I had agreed but forget to point out that in what regards racing the type he is more suitable to is precisely offshore racing with a short crew. That's where the 350 and the 310 have had better results.

Again, a nice year to you:)
 
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Polux, I assume you are French? Are you in France or the UK?

Problem for me is that voiles and volieres looks to have some interesting reviews and articles, but unlike you my grasp of foreign languages is zero! (got a d in o level French! Which is a fail!!)

Is there any way of getting an English language version??!!
 
Polux said:
No, my mistake, it is the 400 that have a central cockpit locker with some considerable space not the 360, that is very similar to the 350 (same hull):


But the 360, like the 350, on the three cabin version would only interest somebody that would only want to go from marina to marina or wanted the boat exclusively for racing. Anybody interested in long range cruising or offshore sailing would buy the 2 cabin version that has, besides that deep wet locker a deep and big cockpit locker, this one:
36_zps831cdcb7.jpg

Regarding not taking into consideration that in what regards the uses the boat is suited too, that does not make sense, that information is easily available to anybody, more even to a journalist. The test was about the Elan 360, not about the Elan 360 3 cabin version. It is expected that a journalist gives generic information not only about the version that is supplied to him but also about the available versions and options and their suitability.

In what concerns the galley it is not different than the one of an Arcona of a similar size, that as someone has pointed out gets always good information (justified) in what regards offshore suitability. Basically there are two types of galleys : the so called modern ones, all along the saloon, and the ones in L. It is known by all that the last are better in what regards offshore use and the Elan has one of those, with good handholds too on that area

But the bottom point was already made clear by you when you said that you do not see that boat fit for offshore use, two cabins or three cabin version. Given the outstanding stability characteristics I disagree and it seems to me, that regarding the size and the type of boat one of the best market options regarding that, obviously on the 2 cabin version. That's why 1 star out of 5 on that evaluation seemed to me unjustified. I can understand that generically the readers of YM don't see that type of boat suited for offshore use, independently of the seaworthiness and stability characteristics, even if others would disagree and there are effectively a considerably number of them using that type of boat offshore.

In what regards around the cans racing someone said the boat is not very good at it and I had agreed but forget to point out that in what regards racing the type he is more suitable to is precisely offshore racing with a short crew. That's where the 350 and the 310 have had better results.

Again, a nice year to you:)
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While you might have a longing to repeat your points ad nauseam, I have made my views and opinions perfectly clear. I have no desire to waste anymore time addressing your points which I've previously addressed. Please re-read my article and re-read my posts, hopefully you'll gain a clearer understanding of my position and view point. If you don't understand that, fine. If you disagree with that it's fine with me to. But replying to the points you make (again) which I've explained many times before, I'm really not interested in. Goodnight
 
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mrming said:
This is more of a handicap thing than a design issue per se. A wide, light planing machine like the Pogo 30 would make it round the race course faster than the average skinny displacement 30 footer,
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I don't think it would actually. I would back a Corby 29 to beat a Pogo 30 round a ww/lw course every time. Not on corrected but on the water.
 
snooks said:
What do I know anyway? :)
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And there was me thinking you had gone home until us lot agreed to play nicely!

Aside from that I hope you are claiming a double fee from Time Inc - the first half for your professional opinion and the second for defending your work in the YM ball pond here ;)
 
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