YM Elan 360 boat test

[Polux]

Yes but it comes in bright green, or purple! Awesome!!

I confess that I do not understand if those negative comments regarding the looks of the RM are just deep conservatism or British humour

Maybe you guys don't like the lines of modern solo racing boats? For most fast equals beautiful and fat, slow and old with ugly.

The boat has been considered by those that like modern design as one of the nicest designs around. One thing it's sure, the ones that have the money to buy it have liked a lot, several boats have been sold already and I bet that soon the waiting list will be considerable.

It does not look like but this is just a 35ft boat, a big and fast one for a 35ft yacht.

 

[roblpm]

I confess that I do not understand if those negative comments regarding the looks of the RM are just deep conservatism or British humour

Maybe you guys don't like the lines of modern solo racing boats? For most fast equals beautiful and fat, slow and old with ugly.

The boat has been considered by those that like modern design as one of the nicest designs around. One thing it's sure, the ones that have the money to buy it have liked a lot, several boats have been sold already and I bet that soon the waiting list will be considerable.

It does not look like but this is just a 35ft boat, a big and fast one for a 35ft yacht.

Well I admit that I am usually sarcastic all the time but I was being serious!! I would love a bright green RM!!! I think they look great!!

Now how about some information and blogs, stories about extended cruising on them. What happens when you start loading them up?

 

[Polux]

Just made a post on my blog with more information and a movie of an older model going fast charged offshore. Don't want to post here since this one is about the Elan 360.

 

[howard easton]

Interesting blog Polux.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Not sure I'd be fit enough to walk from one side of the boat to the other when tacking!

 

[shaunksb]

I don’t know what leads to these conclusions: Maybe a bigger sun shade with a big bimini on the Hunter?

Well the Legend is over a ton heavier and has much better tankage. It probably has a greater load carrying capacity aswell.

Trade wind sailing isn't really about stix as you are rarely going to get above F8 but with only 170litres for water in the Elan you're going to be using an awful lot of wet wipes going across the pond.

I think I'd take the Legend...


__________________________________

 

[snooks]

what is YachtingMonthly conclusion in what regards offshore passage making potential?: Not suited, having only two stars out of 5. What is the potential regarding trade wind voyaging?: Not suited, having a star out of 5.

Someone has read my test! Hurrah! Thank you Well actually someone has read the start rating .... So what makes an offshore cruiser, or a boat suitable for a tradewinds voyaging?

There's no doubting the test boat was a solid as a pier on the water, but an offshore passage maker or tradewinds voyager (in my eyes) is not solely about performance and stiffness (and with a 2.35m draught her stiffness was hardly a surprise) - but being able to cruise comfortably and safely with all the cruising detritus that one needs - along with places to store it - is what I feel best serves the cruising yachtsman. It's fair to say speed and comfort don't tend to make the best bedfellows, and few boats offer speed and comfort.

Here are the points where I felt the test boat lacked in comparison to a 5 star boat. I tested the 8 berth performance version.

The ability to stow more than 6 fenders would be great, somewhere for a dinghy would be good too, a liferaft might also be nice, how about an outboard? Yep all would be found on an offshore cruiser. The test boat lacked stowage, it had just ONE cockpit-sole-depth cockpit lockers and a chain locker in the bow. Not what I would consider enough deck stowage for an offshore cruising or tradewinds voyager.

The cockpit was also very wide (great for racing) and there's no bracing unless you get out on the coaming...Fancy offshore passage-making like that? Not in my book. There's also a chuffing big open transom with nothing to stop anything rolling off the back into the oggin.

Yes she gripped the water like a dog grips a postman, but the deck level handholds below flexed when I put pressure on them as did the saloon table - which didn't inspire confidence for use offshore.

If one were to go offshore it's nice to have a navigation area (so I'd know where I was and where I was going), somewhere with fiddles, so anything place on the nav table would remain there. This Elan had none.

Not just deck stowage, you're passage making so stowage for clothes. Clothes to be kept in the boat, rather than in bags (especially doing a tradewinds (long) passage). There were no hanging lockers or shelved lockers (suitable for clothes) in any of the 3 cabins. Also the contents of the locker in the shower compartment (the one with the 230v socket 6 inches from my nose and not broad enough for me to comfortably face fore/aft) were on the floor after our test sail because the locker latches couldn't keep the locker door closed - on Southampton water, no where near offshore.

How about some fiddles around the galley? That would also be nice, as would drawer latches that were usable over and over again without the feeling my knuckles had been dragging along the floor. While the galley has a good fiddles around most of it, it doesn't by the sink - where the water will run down over the woodwork. Speaking of the galley, more stowage for food, tins etc would have been good if I'm doing tradewinds routes

I could go on, but I don't want to labour my point, I didn't think she was most suited for offshore passage making or tradewinds voyaging. I can only test the boat that is supplied to me on the day, I can't hypothesise what a different layout/keel/sail configuration will actually do, I can only say what it should do. The fact is, if there was a category for "round-the-cans racer" she would have got 5 starts, but Yachting Monthly is a cruising magazine and all of the tests I write for the core readership of the magazine.

There's a 360º of the interior here:
http://grahamsnook.com/ym/elan360


I can't (and won't) comment about any other boat tests in the magazine.

 

[Daydream believer]

I sm not sure if your comments above are in the actual test. I do know that PBO send (or did)a draft of the test to the agent for approval. I wonder if you do. It must be difficult to give a poor test on a boat supplied by an advertiser. I suppose the only solution is to leave out the bad bits. Certainly what you have described would put me off being ( not that i am) a possible buyer

 

[Polux]

Someone has read my test! Hurrah! Thank you Well actually someone has read the start rating .... So what makes an offshore cruiser, or a boat suitable for a tradewinds voyaging?

There's no doubting the test boat was a solid as a pier on the water, but an offshore passage maker or tradewinds voyager (in my eyes) is not solely about performance and stiffness (and with a 2.35m draught her stiffness was hardly a surprise) - but being able to cruise comfortably and safely with all the cruising detritus that one needs - along with places to store it - is what I feel best serves the cruising yachtsman. It's fair to say speed and comfort don't tend to make the best bedfellows, and few boats offer speed and comfort.

Here are the points where I felt the test boat lacked in comparison to a 5 star boat. I tested the 8 berth performance version.

The ability to stow more than 6 fenders would be great, somewhere for a dinghy would be good too, a liferaft might also be nice, how about an outboard? Yep all would be found on an offshore cruiser. The test boat lacked stowage, it had just ONE cockpit-sole-depth cockpit lockers and a chain locker in the bow. Not what I would consider enough deck stowage for an offshore cruising or tradewinds voyager.

The cockpit was also very wide (great for racing) and there's no bracing unless you get out on the coaming...Fancy offshore passage-making like that? Not in my book. There's also a chuffing big open transom with nothing to stop anything rolling off the back into the oggin.

Yes she gripped the water like a dog grips a postman, but the deck level handholds below flexed when I put pressure on them as did the saloon table - which didn't inspire confidence for use offshore.

If one were to go offshore it's nice to have a navigation area (so I'd know where I was and where I was going), somewhere with fiddles, so anything place on the nav table would remain there. This Elan had none.

Not just deck stowage, you're passage making so stowage for clothes. Clothes to be kept in the boat, rather than in bags (especially doing a tradewinds (long) passage). There were no hanging lockers or shelved lockers (suitable for clothes) in any of the 3 cabins. Also the contents of the locker in the shower compartment (the one with the 230v socket 6 inches from my nose and not broad enough for me to comfortably face fore/aft) were on the floor after our test sail because the locker latches couldn't keep the locker door closed - on Southampton water, no where near offshore.

How about some fiddles around the galley? That would also be nice, as would drawer latches that were usable over and over again without the feeling my knuckles had been dragging along the floor. While the galley has a good fiddles around most of it, it doesn't by the sink - where the water will run down over the woodwork. Speaking of the galley, more stowage for food, tins etc would have been good if I'm doing tradewinds routes

...

I guess that the "not on my book" explains it. I don't think that a boat tester for a magazine should let his personal tastes in what regards cruising interfere on a boat evaluation process. Certainly you know that many chose fast boats with a smaller storage capacity to travel extensively without any problem regarding storage. It has all to do with life style and the way one likes to cruise and enjoy sailing as doing it.

What makes a boat suitable to sail offshore is its seaworthiness, that you judged satisfactory. That is what a sailor cannot see on a boat show where he can perfectly see that the space available for storage suits him, if the galley, head and other cruising amenities are adequate or not and if the interior has enough hand holds or not.

Regarding sailing offshore and hand holds even if someone can always adapt the boat to his needs I see plenty of them on that boat, on the stairs, along the galley and on both sides of the cabin.

http://grahamsnook.com/ym/elan360/

In what concerns the boat having that stability (a good one) only with that big draft, the stability curve of that boat is basically the same with that draft or smaller draft, being the difference the use of more ballast (and an heavier boat) to compensate the smaller draft. The CG of the boat would be the same.

Knowing that the boat comes in several keel configurations and in two interior configurations and that the only thing that will change in what regards sailing will be a faster sailing boat (less weight) and a better pointing ability (deeper draft) with no effect on stability and been the test generically about the Elan 360 I don't understand how those facts are not took in consideration in what regards the boat overall appreciation, namely in what regards storage for offshore or trade wind voyaging. Certainly someone interested in that type of sailing would chose the 2 cabin version that at least for me, that like most, sail with my wife, that boat would have the needed storage space. The same if I had a 3 cabin version and used one only for storage.

http://www.elan-yachts.com/elan/e6.html

Note: I do not have an Elan even if I had sailed a 380, I do not have any connections with Elan and I sail and own a bigger performance cruiser.

By the way, why do not the magazine publish stability curves anymore? At least that one was a solid indisputable piece of information even if I was always intrigued by the lack of informed comments about them. I remember some years back the test of a Catalina 42. The magazine posted a lousy stability curve with an AVS of 105º and said: "should prove a sound and reliable coastal and offshore cruiser".

 

[doug748]

......... Certainly what you have described would put me off being ( not that i am) a possible buyer

I don't think it would put me off much.

It's an inshore racer with 7 1/2 foot draught, little stowage and no anchor roller. No doubt great at what it was designed for, but even Elan don't consider it a cruising boat, let alone one designed to cross an ocean.

Is this thread a wind up.

 

[snooks]

I guess that the "not on my book" explains it. I don't think that a boat tester for a magazine should let his personal tastes in what regards cruising interfere on a boat evaluation process. Certainly you know that many chose fast boats with a smaller storage capacity to travel extensively without any problem regarding storage. It has all to do with life style and the way one likes to cruise and enjoy sailing as doing it.

Alain Bombard crossed the atlantic in an inflatable dinghy, but he is not our core readership and very few others would endure those hardships. YM is a cruising magazine, cruising affords us comfort, protection and the lack of timetable I write for the cruising yachtsman, few of which would sit on the coaming day and night because it's the only comfortable and secure place to sit "in" the cockpit (without the risk of sliding off to leeward).

What makes a boat suitable to sail offshore is its seaworthiness, that you judged satisfactory. That is what a sailor cannot see on a boat show where he can perfectly see that the space available for storage suits him, if the galley, head and other cruising amenities are adequate or not and if the interior has enough hand holds or not.

Regarding sailing offshore and hand holds even if someone can always adapt the boat to his needs I see plenty of them on that boat, on the stairs, along the galley and on both sides of the cabin.

Again, I can only test the boat as it's presented. Any boat can be improved by an owner, but should they have to?...I'm not there to test what she could become, but what she is on that day as presented to me. What you can't see is the flex of the hand hold...PM me your Email address and I'll send you the video I took on my phone.

Knowing that the boat comes in several keel configurations and in two interior configurations and that the only thing that will change in what regards sailing will be a faster sailing boat (less weight) and a better pointing ability (deeper draft) with no effect on stability and been the test generically about the Elan 360 I don't understand how those facts are not took in consideration in what regards the boat overall appreciation, namely in what regards storage for offshore or trade wind voyaging.

She was already the performance version (light with a deep draught), so any difference with the shorter keel would be a slower boat with a lower pointing ability. How much slower? how worse at pointing? It's not my job to speculate. I can only report and review the boat on that day.

Certainly someone interested in that type of sailing would chose the 2 cabin version that at least for me, that like most, sail with my wife, that boat would have the needed storage space. The same if I had a 3 cabin version and used one only for storage.

The heads would make a great wet locker, and I could fit a bath in the fore cabin...but that's not their purpose. I can only test a boat and appraise it based on our readership and the guidelines I'm given.

I wrote "She sails well and the cockpit is laid out for speed, not shelter. The layout of this twin aft cabin version didn’t work in my opinion; there were too many compromises. I’d happily lose an aft cabin to gain a larger heads, more deck stowage and a proper chart table. For me it’s a ‘no brainer’, but then I never sail with eight people on board. "

If you're going to get a cruising magazine to come along and test a boat, it should be a boat for cruising, should it not? Imagine "Off-Roader" magazine getting a Ferrari to test, should they make allowances?

By the way, why do not the magazine publish stability curves anymore?

Sorry it's not my position to comment, I will say space is limited within the magazine, it's not helped by me overwriting :0)

Lets's turn this around a second if I may?...If I'd given her more stars and someone went on that boat and saw she has less than 1M3 of cockpit stowage space in one cockpit locker, limited stowage below and a chart table without fiddles - what sort of credibility would that give any further test I write? She's not designed to be an offshore cruiser, and I can only judge her on the set criteria the magazine has - that all boats YM test are judged against.

 

[jwilson]

snipped ...
By the way, why do not the magazine publish stability curves anymore? At least that one was a solid indisputable piece of information even if I was always intrigued by the lack of informed comments about them. I remember some years back the test of a Catalina 42. The magazine posted a lousy stability curve with an AVS of 105º and said: "should prove a sound and reliable coastal and offshore cruiser".

I agree fully about the omission of AVS curves, but happen to know the Catalina 42 (few thousand miles including some F7-8) and it always felt solid and safe. Size matters: I'd rather face ordinary heavyish weather in a Catalina 42 than a Contessa 32, which has an impeccably high AVS, and is another boat I've done quite a few miles in. If it got to "you're going to get inverted whatever you're in..." conditions then the Contessa just, just might be better. And I have been inverted in a 34-footer.

On the Elan the stowage is a joke as a serious cruiser, but it definitely looks nice to sail: I could be tempted as a weekend potterer who enjoys sailing fast.

 

[Polux]

I don't think it would put me off much.

It's an inshore racer with 7 1/2 foot draught, little stowage and no anchor roller. No doubt great at what it was designed for, but even Elan don't consider it a cruising boat, let alone one designed to cross an ocean.

Is this thread a wind up.

Not being able to see an anchor roller does not mean it has not one. It has one as well as a windlass and the the anchor can be permanently on the roller, even if that is ugly, can catch the geenaker and rises the CG increasing weight up.

Here you can see the system on the 350 that is basically the same boat (22 seconds):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8G62GpScvc

An Inshore racer? It seems you don't know what is a racer. Elan don't consider it a cruising boat? You are wrong, don't know where you got that idea. From the Elan site on the boat:

"The Elan E4 has once again consolidated Elan’s reputation as a builder of exciting performance-cruising sailing yachts, where neither performance, nor the cruising capabilities are left to compromise."

http://www.elan-yachts.com/elan/e6.html

You seem to be one of those very conservative sailors that call to performance cruisers race boats, but in fact they are more used for cruising than for club racing and are not racing boats at all. You can even find the Elan 350 on the charter market...and the 360 will follow. Not all like to cruise in slow sailing boats.

 

[drakes drum]

Stability is about a great deal more than the AVS or indeed the stix number. If AVS alone was sufficient, no one would ever go near a big ship or indeed a small catamaran..

 

[snooks]

I sm not sure if your comments above are in the actual test. I do know that PBO send (or did)a draft of the test to the agent for approval. I wonder if you do. It must be difficult to give a poor test on a boat supplied by an advertiser. I suppose the only solution is to leave out the bad bits. Certainly what you have described would put me off being ( not that i am) a possible buyer

If a manufacture or agent want to read the article before, they can ask. It is always under the understanding that if anything is factually incorrect we can change it, if they feel my opinion is wrong, we won't. If they come back with comments I'll discuss it with Duncan Kent and we'll make a decision. If, on reflection we, feel I've been unfair we can change it, if not it stays.

We did alert Elan to the fact someone had put the 12v light switch (not IP rated) and the 230v power socket (again not IP rated) at shoulder height in the head cum shower compartment and the forepeak buckboards flexed too much before publishing.

In the article I mentioned: the 230v socket in the shower, lack of fiddles on the chart table and galley, lack of knuckle skin, lack of cockpit bracing, not-a-lot of cockpit stowage, weak magnetic latches in the heads, however the flexible grab rail, saloon table and lack of cabin stowage got the chop due to space) Many other things went in there, many of them positives...You might have to buy the mag to find out more though :0)

Here's the verdict: http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/reviews/yacht-reviews/new-boat-test-elan-360/

 

[Polux]

I agree fully about the omission of AVS curves, but happen to know the Catalina 42 (few thousand miles including some F7-8) and it always felt solid and safe. Size matters: I'd rather face ordinary heavyish weather in a Catalina 42 than a Contessa 32, which has an impeccably high AVS, and is another boat I've done quite a few miles in. If it got to "you're going to get inverted whatever you're in..." conditions then the Contessa just, just might be better. And I have been inverted in a 34-footer.
...

Sure, a somewhat heavy 42ft boat even with a 105 AVS will have a lot of stability but that does not tell you knowing about the final boat stability that is the one to what the AVS refers. That 105 AVS and the correspondent low RM at 90º will mean that a Catalina 42 with a radar on the mast and a genoa on the furler, and even worst if it has a furling main, will have a great difficulty to recover from a 90º knock down and I do not even know if it will be able to recover at all. It means also (that and the inverted part of the curve being almost as big as the positive part) that once capsized the boat will have a huge difficulty in getting back to his feet (if it will manage that) and will stay capsized for a looooong time.

Those characteristics don't make for a reliable offshore cruiser. Any monohull can be capsized flat by gust of wind associated with waves, not a very unusual situation and it is expected that an offshore monohll have no difficulty in getting up on his feet. If a boat remains for a long time knocked down, near the AVS limit, the chances are that the next big wave will roll it.

 

[doug748]

"You seem to be one of those very conservative sailors that call to performance cruisers race boats"



Yes, and so do Elan.

It was pointed out on page one, that offshore cruising is a conservative sector. Unless they are Robin Knox-Johnson, cruisers don't want to batter their way across oceans, loosening their teeth, to get there first. They generally have small crews, want to avoid reefing, playing mainsheets and travelling with a toothbrush and two pairs of socks.

Don't set me off about the underwater accoutrements.

 

[Polux]

Stability is about a great deal more than the AVS or indeed the stix number. If AVS alone was sufficient, no one would ever go near a big ship or indeed a small catamaran..

Sure but I did not said only that the AVS or the STIX was great, I said that the boat had a great stability curve and I may had that the type of hull and keel provide also a good dynamic stability with the boat being able to disperse a good amount of the energy of a breaking wave sliding away before tripping on the keel and have that energy transformed on a rolling movement. Yes, weight is also important but this boat without being heavy it is also not ultra light for a 36ft cruiser.

Besides snooks had agreed that the boat had a lot of stability.

 

[dom]

Unless they are Robin Knox-Johnson, cruisers don't want to batter their way across oceans ...with a toothbrush and two pairs of socks.

Hang on a moment. Most crews have adopted the "cut all unnecessary weight" mantra - this requires toothbrushes to be sawn in half

 

[Polux]

"You seem to be one of those very conservative sailors that call to performance cruisers race boats"



Yes, and so do Elan.

It was pointed out on page one, that offshore cruising is a conservative sector. Unless they are Robin Knox-Johnson, cruisers don't want to batter their way across oceans, loosening their teeth, to get there first. They generally have small crews, want to avoid reefing, playing mainsheets and travelling with a toothbrush and two pairs of socks.

Don't set me off about the underwater accoutrements.

Nothing against conservative cruisers that like to go slowly and with a lot of stuff, unless they think that it is the right or only way to do it. There are boats designed to voyage fast offshore, small and big ones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjp7c05nNRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfACGqImhWk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbYWHGUcKiQ

and lots of sailors that would not want to do it on a slow boat no matter the stuff they could take with them.