YM Elan 360 boat test

[Just_sayin']

Yes but they are French! Which means they arent like the rest of us./QUOTE]

Interesting observation. Why DO they do their plate washing under the pontoon taps? And how do they fit 8 people into a 4 berth boat?

Serious note though, inspirational sailors and designers. Bit jealous really.

 

[howard easton]

No. You cant be nice to the French! And to my mind the most inspirational sailors were those that did the famous voyages for the firts time ie into the unknown. Mostly British, the odd yank and one Ozzie. The latter just had to be nuts or trying to escape the wife's lawyers. Three times round the globe without stopping! And he wasnt on a Pogo either.

As for the plate washing you already have your answer courtesy of Polux.

 

[snooks]

Ok let's look at the Pogo 10.50 and compare it to the Elan I tested. Masses more stowage, both galley and chart table have fiddles and both can be used at sea using the table to brace on. The cockpit has many more places to brace, sit and steer from.

Now compare the Elan to the Figaro 2 I sailed (also in that issue magazine) with Sam Goodchild. The Figaro again has masses more stowage, (given below it just has a chart table seat, the rest is stowage). It also has fiddles on the Admiralty sized chart table, a small but usable galley area, hand holds one can swing from, easily usable sail controls all to hand of the helm. Capable of crossing oceans on, as is a class 40, but would the readership of YM give up their berths for a pipe cot? Probably not

So yes the Pogo would make a better offshore cruiser than the Elan 360.

The pogo and Figaro are designed for long distance racing, the Elan is not. She's a more than capable round-the-cans racer with a few offshore races thrown in. But offshore racing is a world away from offshore cruising.

 

[flaming]

The pogo and Figaro are designed for long distance racing, the Elan is not. She's a more than capable round-the-cans racer with a few offshore races thrown in. But offshore racing is a world away from offshore cruising.

Unless the 360 is a step change from the 350 it is a pretty terrible round the cans racer. Round the cans needs good upwind performance, since you spend over ⅔ of your time beating. Never been a fat boat that worked round the cans, and the 350 was notably slow upwind. One RTI a 350 caught us at Bembridge, having done double digit speeds all the way down the back of the island. We reached with them to the forts, but beat them home by over 20 minutes. They owed us time.

What the 350/360 is in my opinion is a pretty good JOG racer and short handed Chanel cruiser. Agree it's not the boat I'd be looking at for ocean sailing, though I do agree with Pollux that wide "open" style boats in general are the future there.

 

[roblpm]

Ok let's look at the Pogo 10.50 and compare it to the Elan I tested. Masses more stowage, both galley and chart table have fiddles and both can be used at sea using the table to brace on. The cockpit has many more places to brace, sit and steer from.

Now compare the Elan to the Figaro 2 I sailed (also in that issue magazine) with Sam Goodchild. The Figaro again has masses more stowage, (given below it just has a chart table seat, the rest is stowage). It also has fiddles on the Admiralty sized chart table, a small but usable galley area, hand holds one can swing from, easily usable sail controls all to hand of the helm. Capable of crossing oceans on, as is a class 40, but would the readership of YM give up their berths for a pipe cot? Probably not

So yes the Pogo would make a better offshore cruiser than the Elan 360.

The pogo and Figaro are designed for long distance racing, the Elan is not. She's a more than capable round-the-cans racer with a few offshore races thrown in. But offshore racing is a world away from offshore cruising.

Is there a YM Pogo 10.5 test??

I think there is demand for some tests of French style cruising boats? Pogo, RM etc??

 

[JumbleDuck]

I really did not want to continue this. Snooks has make is point clearly saying that he works for a magazine that has a certain type of readers that surely fits your profile and probably the profile of the majority of YM readers, nothing wrong with that but when I am saying that I am stating just my opinion you are wrong, just not the one prevalent by this parts but far from lonely.

It's still your opinion, though, which leaves you in no moral position to criticise Snooks for his. Which is, I venture to suggest, shared by an awful lot more people than yours.

I run a blog that is followed mostly by the type of sailors that would take an Elan 360 offshore and I have between 500 and 800 hits a day.

Congratulations. This thread alone has had 1,871 hits so far.

And it is not only that, it is that in fact light fast boats with less handholds, much less interior storage and less cruising amenities than the Elan 360 are chosen by that type of sailors to cruise extensively.

There have always been people happy to cruise in discomfort - just as there are people who enjoy racing Westerly Centaurs. Even if these people do read a review in a cruising magazine they are unlikely to be deterred by Snooks' criticisms. However, it is simply absurd for you to dismiss the views of an experienced cruising yachtsman, writing for a cruising magazine.

Good luck with the blog.

 

[JumbleDuck]

What the 350/360 is in my opinion is a pretty good JOG racer and short handed Chanel cruiser. Agree it's not the boat I'd be looking at for ocean sailing, though I do agree with Pollux that wide "open" style boats in general are the future there.

I don't think that's the point of contention, really ... there surely isn't any reason why a wide open style boat shouldn't have stowage, fiddles, solid handholds and the other necessities for a reasonably comfortable cruising life at sea.

 

[howard easton]

Unless the 360 is a step change from the 350 it is a pretty terrible round the cans racer. Round the cans needs good upwind performance, since you spend over ⅔ of your time beating. Never been a fat boat that worked round the cans, and the 350 was notably slow upwind. One RTI a 350 caught us at Bembridge, having done double digit speeds all the way down the back of the island. We reached with them to the forts, but beat them home by over 20 minutes. They owed us time.

What the 350/360 is in my opinion is a pretty good JOG racer and short handed Chanel cruiser. Agree it's not the boat I'd be looking at for ocean sailing, though I do agree with Pollux that wide "open" style boats in general are the future there.

Thats an interesting post. I agree about the significanmce of the upwind legs but which cruiser racers are good round the cans ? Any idea on beam width maximum? It puzzles me becuase I would have thought that a wide beam but lightweight boat would have good planing potential.

 

[Polux]

Ok let's look at the Pogo 10.50 and compare it to the Elan I tested. Masses more stowage, both galley and chart table have fiddles and both can be used at sea using the table to brace on. The cockpit has many more places to brace, sit and steer from.
....
So yes the Pogo would make a better offshore cruiser than the Elan 360.
..

Humm, there is only a problem that boat that I posted and that had made two complete Atlantic cruising circuits was not a Pogo 10.50 but a Pogo 8.50, this one:

If you want to compare the Elan 360 in what regards tankage, storage and offshore ability, compare it with the boat I posted, the 8.50, or if you want with the slightly bigger Pogo 30. Certainly you would agree that the storage space of an Elan 360 with two cabins is much bigger as well as tankage and the overall stability, due to the big difference in weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ewACCJogKE

I am not trying to convince you or anybody to like cruising offshore on this type of boats and I agree with you that YM is a conservative magazine with conservative readers, readers that would not consider a boat like this for doing a Atlantic tour, but obviously there are some that chose this type of boats over more comfortable but boring to sail sailboats. There are even some that chose much more radical boats even for a circumnavigation over the typical boat most YM readers would prefer....anything they could afford except a boring boat to sail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRgIst0XMp0

I bet if they had the money for it they would have preferred the Pogo 30 and the Elan 360 would be positively luxurious...maybe too much for them

 

[mrming]

Thats an interesting post. I agree about the significanmce of the upwind legs but which cruiser racers are good round the cans ? Any idea on beam width maximum? It puzzles me becuase I would have thought that a wide beam but lightweight boat would have good planing potential.

This is more of a handicap thing than a design issue per se. A wide, light planing machine like the Pogo 30 would make it round the race course faster than the average skinny displacement 30 footer, but under most handicap systems, the time penalty imposed on the Pogo for these planing characteristics would usually mean that it could not win on corrected time (assuming both boats are well set up and sailed). The Pogo is not slow upwind (except in very light weather when it has too much wetted area), it's just limited by it's waterline length and is carrying a rating equivalent to that of a much longer displacement boat.

The Élan 360 is too heavy to be a true planing design so you would be limited to surfing in waves / heavier wind, making it even less likely that you would beat a less extreme 30 footer on corrected time, except in a long downwind passage race.

The best cruiser racers round the cans are non-extreme designs which are slightly quicker than their counterparts but don't unduly suffer for it on their rating. The Hunter Impala is the classic. Examples from recent years include the X-332, Élan 333, J/92, J/109 and First 40. Pure racers optimised for IRC tend to be heavy (non planing), skinny at the waterline with a big bulb offset by a healthy amount of upwind sail area. This is the case until the boats get to around 50 feet and above, when suddenly planing characteristics are no longer so heavily penalised.

At the smaller end of IRC racing some strange things happen - one of the most competitive designs is the Corby 25 which is a 25 footer that weighs 2100kg and carries almost the same upwind sail area as a J/92.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am not trying to convince you or anybody to like cruising offshore on this type of boats and I agree with you that YM is a conservative magazine with conservative readers, readers that would not consider a boat like this for doing a Atlantic tour, but obviously there are some that chose this type of boats over more comfortable but boring to sail sailboats.)

Both a Corribee and a Wayfarer have been cruised to Iceland. They make your Elans and Pogos look like very conservative choices.

 

[vyv_cox]

If you want to compare the Elan 360 in what regards tankage, storage and offshore ability, compare it with the boat I posted, the 8.50, or if you want with the slightly bigger Pogo 30. Certainly you would agree that the storage space of an Elan 360 with two cabins is much bigger as well as tankage and the overall stability, due to the big difference in weight.

It seems to me, as a long- term cruiser, that there is a world of difference between having adequate stowage in properly designed lockers and chucking everything into an unused cabin.

 

[howard easton]

I agree with you that YM is a conservative magazine with conservative readers, readers that would not consider a boat like this for doing a Atlantic tour, but obviously there are some that chose this type of boats over more comfortable but boring to sail sailboats. There are even some that chose much more radical boats even for a circumnavigation over the typical boat most YM readers would prefer....anything they could afford except a boring boat to sail

The overwhelming majority of the yachting market are conservative. Whilst sailors on here drivel on in favour of long keels and heavy displacements the difference between RTW race boats and the average cruiser design remains huge. I guess that much of this comes aboput because those who can afford to buy a cruiser tend to be in their middle or later years and have naturally become more conservative. But that conservatism isnt really the issue here. What is the issue is practicality and assuming that Snooks detailed description is correct, then I agree with him that the Elan 36 is unsuitable for long distance cruising. Its impractical in so many ways from keel and rudder design to cockpit and stowage and below decks design.

Could it be made more suitable? To a degree it could, particularly issues like stowage, but no amount of personal mods are going to get round problems like the rudder and keel and the exposed cockpit. You need to bear in mind that overwhelmingly longer distance cruisers do not helm their boats and dont want to be involved in constant sail tweeking. They want the marine equivalent of cruise control whilst they occupy themselves elsewhere. That suggests a more plodding boat than a more twitchy speed machine.

 

[howard easton]

The best cruiser racers round the cans are non-extreme designs which are slightly quicker than their counterparts but don't unduly suffer for it on their rating. The Hunter Impala is the classic. Examples from recent years include the X-332, Élan 333, J/92, J/109 and First 40. Pure racers optimised for IRC tend to be heavy (non planing), skinny at the waterline with a big bulb offset by a healthy amount of upwind sail area. This is the case until the boats get to around 50 feet and above, when suddenly planing characteristics are no longer so heavily penalised.

I can relate to that. Just come second in a series to a boat whic has almost 3% looser handicap than we have yet time after time is as quick to windward as we are. They are 20 years earlier design wise 3 ft shorter and significantly slimmer.

 

[snooks]

Ok let's look at the Pogo 30 (as it's in production) and compare it to the Elan I tested. Masses more stowage, both "galley" and chart table have fiddles and both can be used at sea using the table to brace on. The cockpit has many more places to brace, sit and steer from.

Better?

@polux Have you actually been on the Elan 360? I'm guessing not. .

I'm not quite sure the point you're trying to make. People have crossed the Atlantic in 25 ft vertues with sod all navigation equipment it doesn't make every long keel 25 ft boat capable of crossing the Atlantic. If it was a Pogo 360 or an Elan 8.5 I could understand your point, but not all boats are built or designed the same even with a similar hull shape. Even if they were the same make it's not a foregone conclusion. For instance I'd cross the Atlantic in a Beneteau Figaro 2, but I wouldn't attempt it in a Beneteau Oceanis 30.

I also certainly wouldn't recommend going offshore or ocean crossing on a boat I hadn't been on or sailed. Which is pretty much what you appear to be suggesting.

 

[mrming]

I can relate to that. Just come second in a series to a boat whic has almost 3% looser handicap than we have yet time after time is as quick to windward as we are. They are 20 years earlier design wise 3 ft shorter and significantly slimmer.

I notice you have a Starlight 35. I've never sailed one, but I can see that like many true cruising boats they are fairly conservatively canvassed. Does the shorter skinnier boat by any chance also have a higher sail area to displacement ratio?

 

[howard easton]

Not on the manufacturer stats it doesnt. Mind you the other boat undoubtedly has less junk on board since the owner is more race focussed and less lazy than I am. I havent bothered taking anchor chain off or emptying water tanks, removing domestic clutter etc. Only when the wind gets up to 15kn true do we start to see a real advantage and most of that is downwind with a big masthead kite up against his smaller fractional one. Surprisingly we can point a little higher than he does though when I say he matches us upwind, that is side by side, on the same angle..

 

[mrming]

Not on the manufacturer stats it doesnt. Mind you the other boat undoubtedly has less junk on board since the owner is more race focussed and less lazy than I am. I havent bothered taking anchor chain off or emptying water tanks, removing domestic clutter etc. Only when the wind gets up to 15kn true do we start to see a real advantage and most of that is downwind with a big masthead kite up against his smaller fractional one. Surprisingly we can point a little higher than he does though when I say he matches us upwind, that is side by side, on the same angle..

Sounds like you're doing alright in that case! There's no way I could beat most of our competitors with a load of cruising gear on board.

Edit - out of interest - what's the other boat?

 

[Polux]

Unless the 360 is a step change from the 350 it is a pretty terrible round the cans racer. Round the cans needs good upwind performance, since you spend over ⅔ of your time beating. Never been a fat boat that worked round the cans, and the 350 was notably slow upwind. One RTI a 350 caught us at Bembridge, having done double digit speeds all the way down the back of the island. We reached with them to the forts, but beat them home by over 20 minutes. They owed us time.

What the 350/360 is in my opinion is a pretty good JOG racer and short handed Chanel cruiser. Agree it's not the boat I'd be looking at for ocean sailing, though I do agree with Pollux that wide "open" style boats in general are the future there.

Yes I agree. Not a very good around the cans racer due to lesser good upwind performance but it is a good solo boat and crossing oceans with it depends on the sailor, but it is certainly a good offshore passage boat and that is just what I was saying. A passage is not necessarily an Ocean crossing.

Regarding crossing Oceans there are some that prefer fast boats and in my opinion the Elan 360 is far more adapted to trade wind sailing, with its very good downwind performance, than for instance a J36 and there is a very well known family of four that circumnavigated (for several years) on one and the stated that for them the choice of the right boat for crossing Oceans and cruising extensively rely on two basic parameters: Ability to sail fast: a fast passage is a safer passage and the ability to sail with light winds, for increased autonomy and for keeping motoring to a minimum. Not my opinion, their opinion and they lived and cruised extensively on that boat for years, a boat that in storage capacity is no better than the Elan 360, specially considered they were 4 and most that cruise extensively this type of boat are couples or solo sailors.

 

[Polux]

Both a Corribee and a Wayfarer have been cruised to Iceland. They make your Elans and Pogos look like very conservative choices.

Yes, I agree, in what regards storage space but not in what regards a conservative way to look at hull shape. Most around those parts still look beamy boats with large transoms less safe boats.