YM Elan 360 boat test

Daydream believer said:
I sm not sure if your comments above are in the actual test. I do know that PBO send (or did)a draft of the test to the agent for approval. I wonder if you do. It must be difficult to give a poor test on a boat supplied by an advertiser.
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I have to say that I enjoyed the Elan 360 test enormously because Snooks was so frank about the issues he found. Sometimes tests are rather anodyne advertiser-pleasers, but that one most certainly was not, and I thought the criticisms and conclusions were very clearly explained. Keep 'em coming like that, Mr S.
 
Polux said:
I guess that the "not on my book" explains it. I don't think that a boat tester for a magazine should let his personal tastes in what regards cruising interfere on a boat evaluation process.
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I think it's personal expertise and experience rather than personal tastes, and that's precisely why I read the review. Where can we find a list of objectively established criteria for quality in a boat?

As a matter of interest, it would be interesting to know why you are defending the Elan 360 so vehemently. Do you have any financial interest in them?
 
JumbleDuck said:
I think it's personal expertise and experience rather than personal tastes, and that's precisely why I read the review. Where can we find a list of objectively established criteria for quality in a boat?

As a matter of interest, it would be interesting to know why you are defending the Elan 360 so vehemently. Do you have any financial interest in them?
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I have already replied to that (personal interest) and I do not agree that saying that the boat is less suited for offshore sailing than a twin keel Hunter 36 with 1.25m of draft has to do with the boat seaworthiness and minimum conditions to live aboard for some days. That has to do what the boat tester considers personally fit for that in what regards interior commodities and storage space (his personal taste regarding that). Seaworthiness of a boat to sail offshore and minimum reasonable living commodities are needed and that boat has them.

More then the that reasonable minimum, making a boat heavier and fatter, with a bigger freeboard and less fast and rewarding to sail but with more interior commodities is a question of trade offs, not a established criteria: Some like to go offshore on heavier slow boats others like to sail offshore on lighter fast boats. It is a question of personal taste and life style not a established criteria.

This couple built on propose, with the counsel of a friend NA, a boat to circumnavigate, a boat that suited them. They finished the circumnavigation ( 2 years), took even some friends on some passages and the boat is as faster as the Elan 360, with less storage due to be a smaller boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUiMMNzuPrQ
 
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JumbleDuck said:
I have to say that I enjoyed the Elan 360 test enormously because Snooks was so frank about the issues he found. Sometimes tests are rather anodyne advertiser-pleasers, but that one most certainly was not, and I thought the criticisms and conclusions were very clearly explained. Keep 'em coming like that, Mr S.
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Thank you very much JD, much appreciated. I don't see it as my job to pick holes or please advertisers, merely to give an informed impression of the boat. I'll be honest and I try to be as unbiased as possible.

I think with a group of mates one could have tremendous fun in the Elan 360: a blat across to Cherbourg from the Solent in a westerly could be the most fun you could have with your clothes on. Would I like to sail like that for more than a day at a time? Nope.
 
Polux said:
I do not agree that saying that the boat is less suited for offshore sailing than a twin keel Hunter 36 with 1.25m of draft has to do with the boat seaworthiness and minimum conditions to live aboard for some days. That has to do what the boat tester considers personally fit for that ...
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Well of course it does. That's the whole point of reviews. If I want to read a list of specifications I can visit a manufacturer's website or read a brochure. Do you get equally upset when film critics give their personal opinions?
 
snooks said:
... Would I like to sail like that for more than a day at a time? Nope.
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Yes, that is what I am saying. That is a personal opinion, your taste in what regards a boat to sail for several days, obviously not the opinion of all as we can see by boat that couple of very experienced sailors choose to circumnavigate, or the many Pogos 10.50 that are used to sail offshore. Saying that a boat is fit to sail offshore or not, should not have to do with the kind of boat one would chose personally to do that but objectively if the boat as enough seaworthiness to do that and have reasonable interior amenities to allow sailing and living on the boat for some days.
 
Polux said:
Yes, that is what I am saying. That is a personal opinion, your taste in what regards a boat to sail for several days, obviously not the opinion of all as we can see by boat that couple of very experienced sailors choose to circumnavigate, or the many Pogos 10.50 that are used to sail offshore. Saying that a boat is fit to sail offshore or not, should not have to do with the kind of boat one would chose personally to do that but objectively if the boat as enough seaworthiness to do that and have reasonable interior amenities to allow sailing and living on the boat for some days.
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It would certainly keep the reviews short, wouldn't it?

All-New Elan 360 Boat Test

Does it have a hull, keel and sails?
Yes.
Did it sink on test?
No.
Does it have a toilet, a bunk and space for your sandwiches?
Yes.

Conclusion: May be used for all types of sailing.​
 
Never took much interest in all this esoteric stability curve stuff but it is clear to me that, whilst the boat under discussion may be capable of making long offshore trips it might not be a terribly practical option as it lacks the things that make for a comfortable life at sea for more than a day or so at a time. I know that I'm not a typical cruising type, being of the liveaboard persuasion, but stowage both above and below deck is important.

So, if a boat lacks storage capacity, as it would appear the Élan does, then it's simply not going to score very highly in the offshore cruising stakes is it? Seems to me that if there are more variants than the boy racer version Snooks got to test, then the agents/makers got it wrong in supplying that particular boat as the test vehicle. The magazine is aimed at cruisers, so they should have supplied a cruising version, which would hopefully have had enough storage to make life comfortable rather than something better suited to hurtling round the cans at the weekend. Or have I missed something?
 
Polux said:
Yes, that is what I am saying. That is a personal opinion, your taste in what regards a boat to sail for several days,
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My taste, and the taste of the majority of the demographic of the YM readership.

Who am I writing a magazine article for? The readers. They are my priority.

It's no good saying that it's a great boat for going offshore if the majority of readers would be wet (lack of shelter), uncomfortable (lack of bracing), lost (lack of fiddles on the chart table) and therefore hate experience...We're not a lads mag ;)

Sorry for having a personal opinion and expressing it....Actually scrub that. I'm not at all sorry for having a personal opinion. It might not be "right" in your eyes, but it's still my opinion and I'm sticking to it :D

Where would this forum be if we all had the same opinion?
 
snooks said:
My taste, and the taste of the majority of the demographic of the YM readership.

Who am I writing a magazine article for? The readers. They are my priority.

..
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Ok fair enough but i hate to see Yachting monthly, my preferred magazine for decades, going more and more conservative while other British magazines adapt to modern designs and the variety of cruisers around, the ones that like heavy boats and the ones that like to cruise, offshore or not, on light fast boats. On the last issue of Yachting World there is an article called "Pogo factor" where they talk about the increased preference of many sailors for that type of boats (light and fast) for cruising and they are modifying the way they were being considered on the magazine because there are more and more British sailors interested in them. Look at the brands that have overall increased more their cruiser's boats sales and you will have Pogo an RM easily on the lead.

I had given up the subscription of YachtingMonthly (digital) one or two years back because I did not like the more and more conservative course the magazine took and bought the one that had the Elan 360 test hoping that the tendency had someone changed...my mistake.

Tell me, the sales of the magazine have been increasing or lowering on the last years? Kind of asking if the British sailors are becoming more or less conservative;)

All the best to you and a nice new year to all.
 
Polux said:
Ok fair enough but i hate to see Yachting monthly, my preferred magazine for decades, going more and more conservative while other British magazines adapt to modern designs and the variety of cruisers around....
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I don't think it is being unduly conservative to want reasonable storage, proper fiddles and well engineered handholds on a modern hull if it is to be used for cruising. In fact, the idea that all these things can be airily dismissed in the interests of modernity is nonsense. And, of course, your personal opinion.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I don't think it is being unduly conservative to want reasonable storage, proper fiddles and well engineered handholds on a modern hull if it is to be used for cruising. In fact, the idea that all these things can be airily dismissed in the interests of modernity is nonsense. And, of course, your personal opinion.
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I really did not want to continue this. Snooks has make is point clearly saying that he works for a magazine that has a certain type of readers that surely fits your profile and probably the profile of the majority of YM readers, nothing wrong with that but when I am saying that I am stating just my opinion you are wrong, just not the one prevalent by this parts but far from lonely. I run a blog that is followed mostly by the type of sailors that would take an Elan 360 offshore and I have between 500 and 800 hits a day.

And it is not only that, it is that in fact light fast boats with less handholds, much less interior storage and less cruising amenities than the Elan 360 are chosen by that type of sailors to cruise extensively. Here you have the blog of a Pogo 850 that is on his second Atlantic circuit, a lot more than be suited for offshore sailing. The boat was preferred for that regarding other more conservative options because was faster, more rewarding to sail and obviously because the couple that sailed it considered that it had the minimum storage and amenities that suited them for doing that. Yes there is a growing number of cruisers taking boats as the Elan 360 or the Pogo as cruising boats, offshore or not, they are just not readers of YM and on that snooks is probably right.

http://voilierapache.unblog.fr/
http://letourdefredetcam.over-blog.com/

The first tour:
 
FWIW I am in the Polux camp regarding what I would consider as an ideal offshore cruiser. Having already crossed the pond in a Pogo 6.50, I'd prefer a little more comfort and my ideal cruiser would be the Pogo 12.50.

However I think snooks' assessment of how to give stars for an offshore passage-maker are probably right on. It isn't just offshore sailing, but passage making. And for most people that is a combination of things. Comfort, stability, dryness, and - yes - storage capacity for the things you want on passage and those you'll want when you get there.

If we took Polux's approach to giving stars for offshore passage making, every Cat A boat would get 5 stars, with all of the details thereafter being down to personal preference.
 
Polux said:
I really did not want to continue this. Snooks has make is point clearly saying that he works for a magazine that has a certain type of readers that surely fits your profile and probably the profile of the majority of YM readers, nothing wrong with that but when I am saying that I am stating just my opinion you are wrong, just not the one prevalent by this parts but far from lonely. I run a blog that is followed mostly by the type of sailors that would take an Elan 360 offshore and I have between 500 and 800 hits a day.

And it is not only that, it is that in fact light fast boats with less handholds, much less interior storage and less cruising amenities than the Elan 360 are chosen by that type of sailors to cruise extensively. Here you have the blog of a Pogo 850 that is on his second Atlantic circuit, a lot more than be suited for offshore sailing. The boat was preferred for that regarding other more conservative options because was faster, more rewarding to sail and obviously because the couple that sailed it considered that it had the minimum storage and amenities that suited them for doing that. Yes there is a growing number of cruisers taking boats as the Elan 360 or the Pogo as cruising boats, offshore or not, they are just not readers of YM and on that snooks is probably right.

http://voilierapache.unblog.fr/
http://letourdefredetcam.over-blog.com/

The first tour:
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Yes but they are French! Which means they arent like the rest of us. My acute personal observation tells me that they need much more fishing kit than we do and better food storage. But they dont need much water for washing or a proper toilet - a bucket will do. And few French boats that I have moored near seem to carry more than one 6 inch fender!

Once met a Frenchy whilst we were sheltering ( cowering?) from a north west full gale in the port of Gijon on the north spanish coast. The sea was coming over the huge harbour walls and this Frenchy arrived mid gale single handed in an old Arpege direct from la Rochelle. He had only been sailing for 6 months! Mind you thats possibly why he took the risk.

The rest of us prefer a more civilised and comfortable way of doing things. You cannot possibly have a serious long distance cruising boat with 20 gals of fresh water tankage
 
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