Yachting Monthly New Boat Tests

[vyv_cox]

I think the point made earlier about the female point of view is well worth following up. When we look over boats at shows Jill opens every locker to assess the quality of build, following an earlier experience of fibreglass in her finger from a boatshow Moody. Seating comfort is essential, both in the cockpit and the rest of the boat. This of course includes cushion thickness, fabric quality, etc. These are points that rarely occur to me although in our own boat they are of supreme importance. She also spends time moving about the boat, simulating typical routes when visiting the heads, cooking, going on deck from the saloon, etc. All fairly obvious things but not ones that my (male) mind automatically thinks of.

I guess similar points might also be assessed from the point of view of older buyers. I most definitely do not move about the boat as easily as I once did, and as many new buyers seem to be close to or past retirement age steps, climbs and twists are perhaps of some significance.

 

[Blue_mischief]

I'm really not sure how much dimensions and the like really add. After all, this is exactly the sort of thing that a visit to a Boat Show or a dealer is perfect for. Have a look at the boat and see if you fit into the berths or can stand up in the cabin yourself. Or does the boat have whatever pet peeve you have from a layout point of view.

Sorry, from my point of view length of berth is not a peeve, but a killer for any boat. If I can't sleep comfortably, and this is very much dictated by the dimensions of the berths, then knowing that a berth is too short for me will automatically exclude the boat from consideration. The more dimensions the better. A summary table of whatever this thread thinks is critical, would, I think, be a boon at quickly deciding if a boat was worth an actual look. I vote for berth dimensions in the table!

 

[pvb]

I think the point made earlier about the female point of view is well worth following up. When we look over boats at shows Jill opens every locker to assess the quality of build, following an earlier experience of fibreglass in her finger from a boatshow Moody. Seating comfort is essential, both in the cockpit and the rest of the boat. This of course includes cushion thickness, fabric quality, etc. These are points that rarely occur to me although in our own boat they are of supreme importance. She also spends time moving about the boat, simulating typical routes when visiting the heads, cooking, going on deck from the saloon, etc. All fairly obvious things but not ones that my (male) mind automatically thinks of.

I guess similar points might also be assessed from the point of view of older buyers. I most definitely do not move about the boat as easily as I once did, and as many new buyers seem to be close to or past retirement age steps, climbs and twists are perhaps of some significance.

Those are good points. Some boats are quite difficult to move around in. Maybe snooks should enlist the services of one or more of the geriatric posters here to act as an "ease of movement" tester?

 

[pvb]

I vote for berth dimensions in the table!

I reckon a diagram is needed, as many berths are quite odd shapes, and mere dimensions don't tell the whole story.

 

[flaming]

Sorry, from my point of view length of berth is not a peeve, but a killer for any boat. If I can't sleep comfortably, and this is very much dictated by the dimensions of the berths, then knowing that a berth is too short for me will automatically exclude the boat from consideration. The more dimensions the better. A summary table of whatever this thread thinks is critical, would, I think, be a boon at quickly deciding if a boat was worth an actual look. I vote for berth dimensions in the table!

I'm also tall, and I agree, but I would still say that this is something that it is easy for the potential buyer to ascertain in the flesh at a Boat Show, and filling a review with lots of numbers is not going to make it readable for the 95% of readers who are not in the market for the boat. And if limited for space, more words on how the thing sailed would probably be more useful.

 

[richardbrennan]

I would agree with many of the points made.

I think some of the boats tested are way out of the league of the vast majority of YM readers and would certainly put a realistic limit on LOA or perhaps even price.

I would agree with more second hand boat tests, these are the articles I turn to first.

I would also agree that group tests, as done in the dim and distant past, were most useful, and one was instrumental in me choosing one of my previous boats.

 

[neil1967]

I tend to read new boat reviews not because I want to buy a new yacht, but because I want to see how manufacturers have addressed problems and to see if I could learn from them and make modifications to my yacht. I appreciate that manufacturers supply you with yachts to test because they want to sell more yachts, but many/most of us won't, but I will buy yachting magazines that give me ideas/inspiration.....

 

[Ric]

As part of YM's development I'm reviewing the boat tests as it's my chance to give them a bit of a shake up.

I've always written, what I consider to be, an honest review of boats, and the sort of review I would be interested in reading within the constraints of word counts and page numbers.

But, what am I doing wrong? What do you like and dislike? What would you change?

Obviously this is only helpful if you've read one of my tests within the last 12 months and if you can reference a new boat test that has led you to that opinion that would be great too.

Thanks

I find most YM boat tests pretty anodyne and worthless because typically they involve (at best) a day-sail on the Solent then a sweeping generalisation along the lines " she showed a good turn of speed on a broad reach, and tacked through xxx degrees" or some other such meaningless nonsense. It is completely impossible to establish the performance and handling of a boat on a day-sail on the Solent - so why bother? Far better to put in a table of performance ratios, such as Displacement/Length ratio, Velocity Ratio, SA/D, Ballast/Displacement. LOA/Beam Ratio, Comfort Factor (Ted Brewer), AVS etc. Maybe put them in a table and discuss them with respect to other yachts in the same segment.

As others have written, I am always interested in berth lengths and widths, viabilities of sea berths, and head-height below.

I always like to know what lengths the manufacturer has used to package the boat and minimise dead or difficult to access-space. Also build quality - is there a place to keep the washboards convenient and at hand, or are you expected to just chuck them in a locker, where they can't be found when needed quickly? Is there storage for more than one gas bottle? Or does the other gas bottle have to live in the depths of an unvented locker? Is the boat friendly to modifications in the future? Is it completely dry below (amazing how many boat show boats have pools of water in the bilges...). Does boat have ducts for pulling through cables when you need to add extra equipment?

 

[pvb]

Is it completely dry below (amazing how many boat show boats have pools of water in the bilges...).

My 3 year old Bavaria only has dust in the bilges, and I have to say I'm both surprised and impressed.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I always find them a little bit too impersonal - too much of engineering report. I like the author to be subjective sometimes and explain the emotions the boat engenders in him or her as long as it's clear that that is the case. It's done a bot with the the interiors quite often (phrases like "it feels cosy rather than cramped", that sort of thing) but you don't seem to get it much when it comes the way the boat sails. You also very much get the comments from the owner/helmsman perspective - be interesting to hear the crew's/galley slaves/kids commenting on how they felt about a boat.

 

[richardsn9]

I think it is very important to get the balance right between a boat's sailing qualities and what she is like to live on. In general, you do this well. Life below decks and a good night's sleep are an important part of cruising. One reason I kept up my YM subscription and cancelled PBO was their boat tests which told you the absolute minimum about the accommodation, and are written from the perspective of a day sail. If I did that sort of sailing it would be fine, but I nearly always sleep aboard. I like the idea of testing through a mini cruise for that reason.

 

[Heckler]

I think the point made earlier about the female point of view is well worth following up. When we look over boats at shows Jill opens every locker to assess the quality of build, following an earlier experience of fibreglass in her finger from a boatshow Moody. Seating comfort is essential, both in the cockpit and the rest of the boat. This of course includes cushion thickness, fabric quality, etc. These are points that rarely occur to me although in our own boat they are of supreme importance. She also spends time moving about the boat, simulating typical routes when visiting the heads, cooking, going on deck from the saloon, etc. All fairly obvious things but not ones that my (male) mind automatically thinks of.

I guess similar points might also be assessed from the point of view of older buyers. I most definitely do not move about the boat as easily as I once did, and as many new buyers seem to be close to or past retirement age steps, climbs and twists are perhaps of some significance.

Laura does the same at the boat show, she can also tell you which boat has thinner doors than the previous models. She also pointed out that this year the Benes had white gunge in the bulkhead joints so that the excessive amount they use is not as noticeable as last years grey stuff!
Another vote for the womans point of view.
Stu

 

[snooks]

I think the point made earlier about the female point of view is well worth following up. When we look over boats at shows Jill opens every locker to assess the quality of build, following an earlier experience of fibreglass in her finger from a boatshow Moody. Seating comfort is essential, both in the cockpit and the rest of the boat. This of course includes cushion thickness, fabric quality, etc. These are points that rarely occur to me although in our own boat they are of supreme importance. She also spends time moving about the boat, simulating typical routes when visiting the heads, cooking, going on deck from the saloon, etc. All fairly obvious things but not ones that my (male) mind automatically thinks of.

Laura does the same at the boat show, she can also tell you which boat has thinner doors than the previous models. She also pointed out that this year the Benes had white gunge in the bulkhead joints so that the excessive amount they use is not as noticeable as last years grey stuff!
Another vote for the womans point of view.
Stu

Just because you're not noticing things and your partner is, it doesn't mean that's what a 'woman' notices. What do you think I do during a boat test? :0)

I am both skipper and crew when I'm doing a boat test, I look in every area of the boat, from voids in the transom to the very bow – I risk my fingers everytime I put them in a locker). Where I can't physically access I'll use my mobile phone. I have been on hundreds of yachts and have a vast photo library I can refer back to when I'm writing a feature. I collect more information than we can print (because I can rewrite a boat test and sell that onto other publications). I try every berth and often see bits of the boats only someone building it has seen, and far more thoroughly than anyone will ever look around about during a boat show or on a test sail.

During each boat test, in harbour I'll go through a number of activities while onboard including dusting and cleaning the boat, making beds etc for the photos etc. Then once I've finished shooting it I'll go through each cabin and replicate how each area will be used, from making a brew to creating a meal, sat at the table eating the mean, forgetting something and getting it from the galley with the table set and full of imaginary guests, doing the washing up, where to the wet plates etc go, getting into the berths at sea, considering the boat in a rough passage, how would I be able to access areas in an emergency (going back to my experiences of failed stern glands, up to my knees in water during a storm, repairing knackered engines at sea etc. etc.). Then I'll redo them at speed while beating to windward during the test sail.

Thankfully, no one sees me sitting on the toilet or pretending to have a shower, but it doesn't mean I'm not doing it :0)

 

[alant]

I find most YM boat tests pretty anodyne and worthless because typically they involve (at best) a day-sail on the Solent then a sweeping generalisation along the lines " she showed a good turn of speed on a broad reach, and tacked through xxx degrees" or some other such meaningless nonsense. It is completely impossible to establish the performance and handling of a boat on a day-sail on the Solent - so why bother? Far better to put in a table of performance ratios, such as Displacement/Length ratio, Velocity Ratio, SA/D, Ballast/Displacement. LOA/Beam Ratio, Comfort Factor (Ted Brewer), AVS etc. Maybe put them in a table and discuss them with respect to other yachts in the same segment.

As others have written, I am always interested in berth lengths and widths, viabilities of sea berths, and head-height below.

I always like to know what lengths the manufacturer has used to package the boat and minimise dead or difficult to access-space. Also build quality - is there a place to keep the washboards convenient and at hand, or are you expected to just chuck them in a locker, where they can't be found when needed quickly? Is there storage for more than one gas bottle? Or does the other gas bottle have to live in the depths of an unvented locker? Is the boat friendly to modifications in the future? Is it completely dry below (amazing how many boat show boats have pools of water in the bilges...). Does boat have ducts for pulling through cables when you need to add extra equipment?

A cross channel trip might be more illuminating.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

More text, less pictures in the new boat tests. All the new boats will more or less handle as expected and all will be good or very good these days. The comments on Hi Latitude, Creek Crawler etc are a waste of time and irrelevant. A summary table of appropriate salient points with competitor models would by useful, statements on how living on the boat works would be good in the context of weekend or fortnight cruising or month plus living on board i.e. do you have to live out your kit bag, or can you actually put away a pile of clothes. Comments on battery bank size and recharging times with the package being tested would be useful, always interested in wet locker storage. I want to know how stores, victuals, cook and entertain, with a decent meal cooked on the cooker for 4 works, is it easy to wash up because there is a large water heater / hot water tank? Basically I want the boat to be used for the entertainment and leisure purpose that it is designed for and for it to be reported on. Sailing and motoring tests are fairly standard outputs these days, so that should be limited to a few paragraphs at most. Pictures do not impart a lot of information and can raise more points than they are trying to explain, hence, I would rather read more of the testers opinions, than look at a glossy spread. My interest these days: a good sail, easy to wind down and switch from sailing to entertaining, relaxing, a bit of a party, tidy up, rest and ready to sail again the next day. I want to know if I have to move bags of shit from one cabin to the next to do that, or not.

 

[snooks]

A cross channel trip might be more illuminating.

Why?

What happens when the boat isn't in the Solent?

In my experience being on board for longer just confirms that my initial interrogation was correct. I wouldn't learn any more sailing in the same direction for 12 hours and back again the next day. The way the boat handles won't change, the feel on the helm won't change, and what if the next day there was no wind? I'd still get wet feet in the heads without a separate shower compartment, and the heads door without a sill will still leak, if I hit my head on a cockpit moulding a couple of times during a test, I'll only start avoiding it as you would, but your guests would still hit their head.

And that's before you get into the logistics of getting a boat that can be used, fitting it with all the safety equipment: liferaft, jack stays, flares, mob kit etc etc etc. Then utensils, crockery, cutlet, pots/pans food etc all of which would have to be taken to the boat and loaded/unloaded (I already fly with a full weight allowance).

A lot of manufacturers simply won't allow for a boat to be used (cooker/stove/galley/toilet etc) prior to handover to a customer.

I would like to spend longer on the boat, but for what I learn it's not worth my time as it's details that rarely make the final feature. Lastly, I get paid for my words, not how long a test takes.

 

[vyv_cox]

Just because you're not noticing things and your partner is, it doesn't mean that's what a 'woman' notices. What do you think I do during a boat test? :0)

I am both skipper and crew when I'm doing a boat test, I look in every area of the boat, from voids in the transom to the very bow – I risk my fingers everytime I put them in a locker). Where I can't physically access I'll use my mobile phone. I have been on hundreds of yachts and have a vast photo library I can refer back to when I'm writing a feature. I collect more information than we can print (because I can rewrite a boat test and sell that onto other publications). I try every berth and often see bits of the boats only someone building it has seen, and far more thoroughly than anyone will ever look around about during a boat show or on a test sail.

During each boat test, in harbour I'll go through a number of activities while onboard including dusting and cleaning the boat, making beds etc for the photos etc. Then once I've finished shooting it I'll go through each cabin and replicate how each area will be used, from making a brew to creating a meal, sat at the table eating the mean, forgetting something and getting it from the galley with the table set and full of imaginary guests, doing the washing up, where to the wet plates etc go, getting into the berths at sea, considering the boat in a rough passage, how would I be able to access areas in an emergency (going back to my experiences of failed stern glands, up to my knees in water during a storm, repairing knackered engines at sea etc. etc.). Then I'll redo them at speed while beating to windward during the test sail.

Thankfully, no one sees me sitting on the toilet or pretending to have a shower, but it doesn't mean I'm not doing it :0)

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking your reports, which I find entertaining and accurate. But I'm afraid the comfort items don't come across very often, other than the occasional banged head or trapped finger. Some years ago we liked the look of a Dufour yacht and went for a serious look at one. As soon as we sat in the saloon we knew it could not compare with our Sadler. The upright seating was most uncomfortable. Cockpit seating was no better. When spending six months per year on board these are the important points. It would make no difference how well it sailed or how easy it was to service the engine, it's living aboard that for us is the most important issue.

 

[Daydream believer]

Ask some questions such as:-
Size of black water tank, fresh water tank, fuel tank & how effective the gauges are for measuring the levels.
Heads what way the bowl sits - try - as a male standing & using a bowl that is bulkhead mounted ( really hard)as opposed to one mounted either facing stbd or port mounted. If one is tall try using the bowl if not hung like a donkey because one has to bend to use it. Width of doors - try getting through it with full wet gear & life jacket on
Where to sleep when under way- can one sleep in the saloon under way or are the seats too short or curved to allow this.
Where does one put ones clothes. I watched the owner of a Hanse 455 return from diner one night in the pouring rain & the only place to put his wet shirt was across the saloon table.
Is there enough room in the hanging lockers for ALL the crew's wet gear or is it just a miserable small space.
Engine- can one change the filters or the impeller when at sea without moving loads of gear & without getting sea sick & where can one store the tool box
Storage- do the plates lay flat in the lockers & where do the pots & pans go. Is there places for tinned stuff
Deck. Can one add extra control lines ( inc clutches) easily or are they hampered because everything goes to one or two winches as with a lot of modern boats
Do modern self tacking boats still have tracks ready for genoas
Are padeyes fitted ready for other sails suck as spinnakers or barber haulers etc
Are fairleads nicely faired or do they have sharp bits that cut the lines as do some lift up cleats
deck pump, can it be operated easily for long periods or does it have a silly handle that would cut the operators hands after a few minutes use because it has been " ergonomically designed " to fold away
Are the sails easy to fold away or does one have to climb the mast & can one reach over the spray hood to zip up the sail cover or does one have to stand on the cockpit table as does a friend of mine on his new Hanse 455
helm - how long can one let go of the wheel or tiller before the boat rounds up
Will the boat heave too reliably ( & not just while one makes tea in a F£) but in a blow whilst the crew are below
is the cockpit sit in or sit on & what is back support like for the crew when under way in choppy seas & boat healed over. How many can comfortably sit in the cockpit under way. Can one sleep on the seating under way whilst on standby watch or are the seats too short or restricted by traveler
Can the helmsman release the mainsheet to stop a broach & then pull it back in or does he need a crew member
Can the boat be genuinely be sailed single handed

 

[rwoofer]

I'm also tall, and I agree, but I would still say that this is something that it is easy for the potential buyer to ascertain in the flesh at a Boat Show, and filling a review with lots of numbers is not going to make it readable for the 95% of readers who are not in the market for the boat. And if limited for space, more words on how the thing sailed would probably be more useful.

I know from experience it is not always possible to get to see the boat you are considering before quite some commitment. For instance when I bought my RM, I had to visit the factory before I got to see berths etc. Fortunately I found berth sizes in a french magazine review.

And at boat shows, boat always seem to have signs saying do not lie on the berths, so I usually have to do it sneekily or ask.

For me berth size is the single biggest criteria on a cruising boat, because at 6'6" and with SWMBO at 6', the majority of boats under 50ft cannot be considered irrespective of how good other features are.

I have the same problem in cars. Before I do anything else I see if I can sit in it - they are generally easier to find an example of so your suggestion works better for cars.

 

[snooks]

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking your reports, which I find entertaining and accurate. But I'm afraid the comfort items don't come across very often, other than the occasional banged head or trapped finger. Some years ago we liked the look of a Dufour yacht and went for a serious look at one. As soon as we sat in the saloon we knew it could not compare with our Sadler. The upright seating was most uncomfortable. Cockpit seating was no better. When spending six months per year on board these are the important points. It would make no difference how well it sailed or how easy it was to service the engine, it's living aboard that for us is the most important issue.

I usually mention all I disagree with, that won't be changed in the future.

For example the Hanse 388 that will be in the December issue had thin cockpit cushions. I raised this with the agent and they had already raised this with the factory. It turns out the company that supplied the cushions had made them to the wrong spec. Therefore it seemed frivolous pointing this out in my report.