Yachties Right of way

[Rocksteadee]

Motoring back from Chichester to Hamble.
Doing 19knots, approaching Portsmouth outer channel. South of Boyne Starboard hand bouy, exit would have been North of Spit Elbow Port hand bouy, having come through the submarine net gap, Main Passage. So this is open water, unless you are an aircraft carrier.
1.6 nmiles from harbour ent. Dredged channel 2cables (400 yds) wide, surrounding area Chart datumn 5meters
Picked up a yacht (no sails so a PDV) from over a mile away, heading toward Portsmouth in the channel, on a collision course.
I am stand on vessel so do just that, but watching like a hawk.
At around 2c away (safe distance at 19k) the yacht quite clearly has made no apparent altering of course.
So I make a very pronounced turn to port to clear his stern by about 1/2c (my wash is less than 50m so I double it to give clearance).
Fortunately my horn worked 5 times as I passed him.
Followed by me lifting arms once whilst shrugging shoulders in a questioning manor.
I did hear a shout and see some arm waving and I got the impression he deliberately hadn’t seen me.
Then I realised the basic Yachty col reg that they have automatic right of way, even under power (that last bit was just a tongue in cheek rant)

Don’t get me wrong, if a vessel gives way to me they will always get a wave of acknowledgement and many yachties will do the same when I have given way to them, sail or not. Even had a tanker give way to me (another boat 54’) although we had changed course as common sense and might is right also applies.
What annoys me is arrogance from other water users who should know better.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS RIGHT OF WAY!!!
I am open to be corrected but as I see it Stand on means just that.
And as will no doubt be pointed out the 5 blasts was just being churlish

 

[Aquaboy]

well seeing as you were doing 19k in the real world I would think it up do you to keep out of the way!
You may have been the stand on vessel but as the yacht most likely could only do 5 or 6 knots the concept of being able to get out of the way doesn't really exist. It is very difficult to determine the exact heading of someone from any sort of distance and as you get closer its safer for a slow craft to in effect keep still......which compared to you they were doing anyway......in the real world.
But I would say this as a yachty.....

 

[markc]

I dream of a world when all yachties knew and understood the colregs! Same goes for many motor boats too!

 

[rubberduck]

Motoring back from Chichester to Hamble.
Doing 19k, approaching Portsmouth outer channel. South of Boyne SHB, exit would have been North of Spit Elbow PHB, having come through the submarine net gap, Main Passage. So this is open water, unless you are an aircraft carrier.
1.6 nm from harbour ent. Dredged channel 2c wide, surrounding area CD min 5m
Picked up a yacht (no sails so a PDV) from over a mile away, heading toward Portsmouth in the channel, on a collision course.
I am stand on vessel so do just that, but watching like a hawk.
At around 2c away (safe distance at 19k) the yacht quite clearly has made no apparent altering of course.
So I make a very pronounced turn to port to clear his stern by about 1/2c (my wash is less than 50m so I double it to give clearance).
Fortunately my horn worked 5 times as I passed him.
Followed by me lifting arms once whilst shrugging shoulders in a questioning manor.
I did hear a shout and see some arm waving and I got the impression he deliberately hadn’t seen me.
Then I realised the basic Yachty col reg that they have automatic right of way, even under power (that last bit was just a tongue in cheek rant)

Don’t get me wrong, if a vessel gives way to me they will always get a wave of acknowledgement and many yachties will do the same when I have given way to them, sail or not. Even had a tanker give way to me (another boat 54’) although we had changed course as common sense and might is right also applies.
What annoys me is arrogance from other water users who should know better.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS RIGHT OF WAY!!!
I am open to be corrected but as I see it Stand on means just that.
And as will no doubt be pointed out the 5 blasts was just being churlish

Get a flag with "TWAT" on it & fly on such occasions.

 

[CLB]

well seeing as you were doing 19k in the real world I would think it up do you to keep out of the way!
You may have been the stand on vessel but as the yacht most likely could only do 5 or 6 knots the concept of being able to get out of the way doesn't really exist. It is very difficult to determine the exact heading of someone from any sort of distance and as you get closer its safer for a slow craft to in effect keep still......which compared to you they were doing anyway......in the real world.
But I would say this as a yachty.....

There is your answer. That is probably fairly typical of how yachties think.

 

[Elessar]

well seeing as you were doing 19k in the real world I would think it up do you to keep out of the way!
You may have been the stand on vessel but as the yacht most likely could only do 5 or 6 knots the concept of being able to get out of the way doesn't really exist. It is very difficult to determine the exact heading of someone from any sort of distance and as you get closer its safer for a slow craft to in effect keep still......which compared to you they were doing anyway......in the real world.
But I would say this as a yachty.....

What utter, potentially dangerous, nonsense.

 

[Elessar]

There is your answer. That is probably fairly typical of how yachties think.

I don’t think it’s typical at all. This guy is either a deliberate troll or urgently needs to go to night school.

 

[jrudge]

You use a unit "c" that I have never heard of before but reading the rest of it and your wash reference I assume it is 100m?

I can't really see why you left it to 200 Mts if you saw it a mile away. 19 kts is 10m per second so it was 20 seconds away. I am also not sure why to honked your horn 5 times. That is a signal that you don't know the other boats intention and by that time you clearly did.

As opposed to stand on etc why not just adjust you course by 10 degrees a mile back and there is no drama.

Life is give and take and all are obligated to avoid a collision. You may have been stand on but clearly it has wound you up enough to then post on here and I can't really see it as worth the stress. Maybe he didn't see you who knows.

There are times when a minor altercation is worthwhile and justified ( someone turned right in front of you for example) but here you saw him a long way off and it was your choice surely?

Finally it must be something in the UK drinking water as in Spain everyone just waves at everyone else.

 

[[2068]]

Turning to Port ... if the yacht had turned to Starboard at the last minute, that could have ended badly.

 

[CLB]

I don’t think it’s typical at all. This guy is either a deliberate troll or urgently needs to go to night school.

Typical may have been the wring word. It would indicate a majority, and that is probably incorrect. From experience though, I would say it is common, with a noticeable number of yachties exhibiting traits of a similar nature.

 

[petem]

You use a unit "c" that I have never heard of before but reading the rest of it and your wash reference I assume it is 100m?

I assume cables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_length) but can never get much enthusiasm for these Colregs threads for the reason that you state below.

I can't really see why you left it to 200 Mts if you saw it a mile away. 19 kts is 10m per second so it was 20 seconds away. I am also not sure why to honked your horn 5 times. That is a signal that you don't know the other boats intention and by that time you clearly did.

As opposed to stand on etc why not just adjust you course by 10 degrees a mile back and there is no drama.

Life is give and take and all are obligated to avoid a collision. You may have been stand on but clearly it has wound you up enough to then post on here and I can't really see it as worth the stress. Maybe he didn't see you who knows.

There are times when a minor altercation is worthwhile and justified ( someone turned right in front of you for example) but here you saw him a long way off and it was your choice surely?

Finally it must be something in the UK drinking water as in Spain everyone just waves at everyone else.

 

[markc]

Finally it must be something in the UK drinking water as in Spain everyone just waves at everyone else.

Yep same here in France, very refreshing.

Also, to add to my earlier post, I tend to assume that a slow boat on a collision course, even if sail boat under power, may not act in accordance with the colregs, so I find it easier to adjust my course. Everyone gets a wave, we're all doing it for pleasure!

 

[jrudge]

Cables.

We there is a nice modern measurement.

Wikipedia tells me ...

A cable length or length of cable is a nautical unit of measure equal to one tenth of a nautical mile or approximately 100 fathoms. Due to anachronisms and varying techniques of measurement, a cable length can be anywhere from 169 to 220 metres, depending on the standard used.

So as a unit of measure it would seem flawed as no one actually knows how long their piece of string is !

 

[john_morris_uk]

Motoring back from Chichester to Hamble.
Doing 19k, approaching Portsmouth outer channel. South of Boyne SHB, exit would have been North of Spit Elbow PHB, having come through the submarine net gap, Main Passage. So this is open water, unless you are an aircraft carrier.
1.6 nm from harbour ent. Dredged channel 2c wide, surrounding area CD min 5m
Picked up a yacht (no sails so a PDV) from over a mile away, heading toward Portsmouth in the channel, on a collision course.
I am stand on vessel so do just that, but watching like a hawk.
At around 2c away (safe distance at 19k) the yacht quite clearly has made no apparent altering of course.
So I make a very pronounced turn to port to clear his stern by about 1/2c (my wash is less than 50m so I double it to give clearance).
Fortunately my horn worked 5 times as I passed him.
Followed by me lifting arms once whilst shrugging shoulders in a questioning manor.
I did hear a shout and see some arm waving and I got the impression he deliberately hadn’t seen me.
Then I realised the basic Yachty col reg that they have automatic right of way, even under power (that last bit was just a tongue in cheek rant)

Don’t get me wrong, if a vessel gives way to me they will always get a wave of acknowledgement and many yachties will do the same when I have given way to them, sail or not. Even had a tanker give way to me (another boat 54’) although we had changed course as common sense and might is right also applies.
What annoys me is arrogance from other water users who should know better.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS RIGHT OF WAY!!!
I am open to be corrected but as I see it Stand on means just that.
And as will no doubt be pointed out the 5 blasts was just being churlish

well seeing as you were doing 19k in the real world I would think it up do you to keep out of the way!
You may have been the stand on vessel but as the yacht most likely could only do 5 or 6 knots the concept of being able to get out of the way doesn't really exist. It is very difficult to determine the exact heading of someone from any sort of distance and as you get closer its safer for a slow craft to in effect keep still......which compared to you they were doing anyway......in the real world.
But I would say this as a yachty.....

If you'll forgive me mentioning this but alarm bells rang when I read your account - and not for the reasons you might think. The yacht on your port bow was obviously the give way vessel, but what on earth were you doing altering to Port? Where in the rules does it suggest this? (Most guidelines/IRPCS specifically suggest you should almost always alter to STARBOARD for very good reasons...). Slow down/alter to starboard?

(The five short blasts are supposed to be to wake the other guy up before you alter - not as a retaliatory blast after the manoeuvre.)

You use a unit "c" that I have never heard of before but reading the rest of it and your wash reference I assume it is 100m? I assume he meant a cable - 200 metres

I can't really see why you left it to 200 Mts if you saw it a mile away. 19 kts is 10m per second so it was 20 seconds away. I am also not sure why to honked your horn 5 times. That is a signal that you don't know the other boats intention and by that time you clearly did. Agreed, except in the Solent, no-one can tell what another boat is going to do when they are a mile away. Half the time, by the time you've got nearer to them, they've altered course, tacked, or stopped to go fishing or something.

As opposed to stand on etc why not just adjust you course by 10 degrees a mile back and there is no drama. Standing on is required by IRPCS, (but the rules don't require you to stand on until you collide, so some judgement is called for...)

Life is give and take and all are obligated to avoid a collision. You may have been stand on but clearly it has wound you up enough to then post on here and I can't really see it as worth the stress. Maybe he didn't see you who knows. I agree. If we all got wound up by every yacht that had it's wrong lights on and didn't obey IRPCS then we'd all have a heart attacks and die very quickly from the stress of it all.

There are times when a minor altercation is worthwhile and justified ( someone turned right in front of you for example) but here you saw him a long way off and it was your choice surely?

Finally it must be something in the UK drinking water as in Spain everyone just waves at everyone else.I agree - I've only recently returned to sailing in the Solent, and we'll wave to everyone and anyone who comes close. Lots of miserable old so and so's on the water don't even lift their eyes let alone wave back...

Standing on is exactly the right thing to do - until you are confident that the other guy hasn't seen you or isn't taking avoiding action. Then it's up to everyone to avoid collision. Weaving around isn't helpful.

 

[rafiki_]

Motoring down the Hamble to Port Hamble, a sail training yacht cast off straight into my path. Yes I guess he was stand on, but I had to take considerable avoiding action. Personally I would have waited the 30 seconds until I had past. I guess the skipper was too busy telling his students that mono helms have no idea.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Motoring down the Hamble to Port Hamble, a sail training yacht cast off straight into my path. Yes I guess he was stand on, but I had to take considerable avoiding action. Personally I would have waited the 30 seconds until I had past. I guess the skipper was too busy telling his students that mono helms have no idea.

More likely it was student who was so nervous that he/she forgot to do the basic thing of looking up river before casting off. Hopefully the instructor waved an apology and used it as a teaching point.

 

[Poignard]

[...]
So I make a very pronounced turn to port to clear his stern by about 1/2c (my wash is less than 50m so I double it to give clearance).
Fortunately my horn worked 5 times as I passed him.
[...]

If you intend to turn to port that is not the correct signal.

It would have been, had you intended to stand on.

There is no sound signal mentioned in the ColRegs to indicate disapproval. Although there are many other, unofficial, ways of doing so ....

 

[Tomahawk]

OP.
You turned to .... port?

Where did you learn that in the colregs?

 

[john_morris_uk]

OP.
You turned to .... port?

Where did you learn that in the colregs?

Indeed - see my post No 14. Turning to Port to avoid collision is almost always the wrong thing to do. I say almost, because there are some exceptional circumstances where turning to Post might be the better option, but these circumstances are rare.

Bit of an own goal by the OP.

However hopefully it's a learning point?

 

[Poignard]

[...]Bit of an own goal by the OP.

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?526133-Yachties-Right-of-way#lmkPzi1dRufP5EbI.99

However hopefully it's a learning point?

It certainly will be for the skipper of the sailing yacht, or perhaps confirmation of something he already suspected.