Yacht breaks up off Anvil Point

Re: Flotation man sinks.

"Miss Gutteridge, who had not sailed anything bigger than a 15ft dinghy,"

Seems she wasn't a complete novice? ITV

"Hannah - whose brother is a master yachtsman - was at the helm when disaster struck on Monday as the sea roughened. Wealthy Porsche-driving Paul, from Richmond, Surrey, had been teaching her to sail but had popped below deck."

Mirror
 
Re: Flotation man sinks.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"
I take exception to that you ignorant blackmailing twat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I say old boy, bit rich innit.. was the porridge off this morning !
 
Re: What a plonker!

Don't get your reasoning really

Generally accepted position is:
basic
that lots of experience is good
no experience is bad
training and proof of it is goodish

leads to
that lots of experience + training and proof of it is very good
no experience + training and proof of it is a good starting point to gain the experience
no experience + no training is very bad (partic as skipper of 47ft yacht in open tidal waters with lots of rocks and races)


BTW I do'nt consider 5 days as competent crew even starts to qualify a beginner as a skipper of a soapdish never mind a sizeable sailing craft
 
Re: Flotation man sinks.

Surprised no pictures of Hannah Gutteridge have emerged yet.

I wonder if she is the PR bod who works for Sacla pasta sauce people?
 
Re: What a plonker!

Read the thread, you need to present your insurance so that the road tax can be got. It however is hard to get insurance without a licence
 
Re: What a plonker!

Perhaps I am coming at this from the position of one who has learned through experience rather than formal training. I have tended to only sail with very experienced people as well, so perhaps I have lost touch with what it means to be truly "inexperienced". (Not that I don't genuinely recognise that I still have a lot to learn.)

Having said that, I am not sure the reasoning is as simple as you make it.

Lots of good experience - good
Lots of bad (or irrelevant) experience - bad
Training plus proof - inconclusive to me that this is significantly better than no training (think PADI dive courses in which everyone, no matter how dense are "certified" to do something that is significantly more dangerous than boating)
Common sense - very good

Result is:
Good experience plus training - probably very good and better than either alone
Bad experience plus training - very bad as this will lead to overconfidence and a false sense of security. Perhaps worse than either one alone
Common sense in combination with training or (good) experience - enhances both training and experience

There is no simple answer, but I think the idea of compulsory training / certification has to be considered in light of:
- the mischief that needs to be addressed (maybe based on RNLI statistics?)
- the cost of addressing the mischief
- the benefit to be achieved
- the cost of administration and enforcement

In my view, and approaching the question in this way, it is a no-brainer that compulsory certification is not the way to go.

BTW your last comment about 5 days not being enough to handle a 47 footer is interesting. It suggests that there would need to be a whole range of certification - for type of craft and type of cruising.

There is another issue that perhaps some people might not have considered. What if there were compulsory certification and this guy had passed - and the boat still ended up on the rocks but this time his passenger perished or was seriously injured. Should she or her estate have a claim against the certifier for "passing" an incompetent guy? How about a claim against the authorities that set the standard for the certification? Or if he hadn't passed, a claim against the enforcement agency for not stopping him?

The idea of compulsory certification brings two phrases to mind:
Pandora's Box
The law of unintended consequences
 
Re: What a plonker!

wwas'nt the 5 days that was'nt good enought to skipper the yacht, it was its nature. I did the comp crew course as a novice about 10 years ago and can assure you that no way does it qualify you to do anything other than tie a bowline, load a winch and flush the heads.
 
Re: What a plonker!

I don't think this case adds anything to the "Certificate or not" debate.

The story could be read as:
Skipper goes on short beginner's course, learns enough to think he can handle a big yacht in tidal waters and sinks it. Conclusion: Courses add nothing but an inappropriate feeling of security to those without common sense. If no courses existed then you'd learn with a mate or a little knockabout boat and your scrapes would be little ones.

or

Skipper buys big yacht and sets sail becuase he needs no qualifications and would be forbidden to skipper with only his short beginners course. He sinks it. Conclusion: compulsory certification would have ensured he couldn't skipper any boat until he'd attended the right courses.
 
Re: What a plonker!

[ QUOTE ]
... no way does it qualify you to do anything other than tie a bowline, load a winch and flush the heads .

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps he was putting his training into action when the boat went up on the rocks. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: What a plonker!

[ QUOTE ]


BTW your last comment about 5 days not being enough to handle a 47 footer is interesting. It suggests that there would need to be a whole range of certification - for type of craft and type of cruising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course a 5-day competent crew course is not enough to be able to skipper a 47-footer!! I've sailed for 45 years, owned (much smaller) yachts for 12 years, and even I'd think twice before setting off up-Channel in a 47-footer with a 'slip of a girl' for a crew.
However I would know enough to give large brown objects a very wide berth and not let the inexperienced crew steer the boat when there is the remotest chance of something terrible happening.
Experience is how you know when there IS the remotest chance of something terrible happening!
 
Hmm

Firstly, there are few accidents like this each year, if there were more the insurance companies would not offer insurance without RYA training thus forcing the issue. Secondly we have all skippered a yacht for the first time, there has to be a first time...

However, those with any brains get a lot of training first and even ensure that they have some experianced crew for the first few times, if for nothing else but to help witthe berthing.

We do not know anything about this chaps level of training nor sailing experience, so it is a bit harsh to assume that he has neither. The evidence is not in his favour if the reports of his boat handling are true. I cannot imagine what he was doing so close to shore, he was either below for a long time and the boat was driven ashore whilst he was below, or he was really close to start with. Either way he has learned a hard lesson.
 
Re: What a plonker!

[ QUOTE ]
There are other threads on here where people admit to cocking up or doing something daft through their own inexperience and people are quite supportive, the only person who has lost out in this event is the owner of the boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here here. I'd always found this forum to be very supportive of the errors we all make from time to time - it is, after all, how we all learn, isn't it? It smacks of envy when everyone gets quite so het up about a 47' yacht hitting the rocks. If we change the scenario somewhat and this was someone who'd just done up, say, a neglected old Folkboat and, with admittedly perhaps rather less experience than he might have had but hey, everyone's got to learn somewhere, had run onto the rocks, and now, without insurance, had lost his boat, I wonder if there's have been rather more sympathy? And if so, doesn't it all come down to the fact that people are jealous of the fact that this chap can afford to buy a 47 footer as a "starter boat"?

I think a little more sympathy would be in order.

Cheers
Patrick
 
Re: What a plonker!

I was not suggesting that a Competent Crew course on its own is/was enough to skipper a 47 foot boat. My point was that if you get into compulsory certification, there is really a complicated structure that would need to be introduced defining the size of the boat, and the type of yachting being done e.g.

Day skipper I - allows someone to operate a boat up to X displacement within A miles of a safe haven; no nightime operation
Day skipper II - same, with Y displacement
Day skipper III - same, with Z displacement

Coastal cruiser I - allows someone to operate a boat up to X displacement within M miles of a safe haven; passages up to R miles permitted
etc.

The problem is that either - the structure has to be very complicated in order to cater for different sizes and types of sailing - or everyone has to pass their tests on a big boat (45' plus? - what is big?) - or they are limited to the size of boat they pass on (take the test again when you want to buy a new boat?) - or the standard has to be set so low as to be virtually meaningless (pass YM on a 28 footer and that "entitles" you to operate anything, even e.g. a 55 footer).

I appreciate that a lot of knowledge (e.g. navigation) is the same regardless of boat size. But comments like yours and Jimi's acknowledge (rightly so) that there is a difference when you are getting on board a bigger boat - so either a compulsory system would have to acknowedge that fact too, and cater for it - or be rendered meaningless.
 
Re: What a plonker!

Allegro's point poses an interesting question.

If our man had done it in an old folkboat, etc.

However, the likelihood is that the only people afloat in (command of) old folkboats are likely to be dyed-in-the wool, hairy handed sons of the sea. It seems the 'just add water to money' wannabees will always want to buy the latest greatest shiniest from the boat show.

Or am I barking up a horse of the wrong colour?
 
Re: Hmm

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly we have all skippered a yacht for the first time, there has to be a first time...

[/ QUOTE ]

couple of points....

One of the first times I took a boat out it was 22ft and I lost a boat hook on a bouy in Chichester Harbour. Bu99er that for expense, never did that again!

One of the reports says he was "teaching his girlfriend to sail", mmm leaving her to helm in a F6 -7 THAT close to rocks?

He was either totally incompetent himself or totally incompetent to teach someone else, one or the other.

If your going to indulge in cheque book sailing you have to have the whole package, big expensive yacht plus big expensive training course (not that I'm a fan of the fast track route)
 
Re: Hmm

I don't think that it was an f6 or f7 at any time that morning - the met forecast was fairly wrong for inshore stuff that day. We left Weymouth around 10am and I'd been watching the windex from 7am as I didn't fancy the trip back in a forecast SW6. I never saw more than 10knots, and it didn't get above 16knots until the afternoon (by which time I was manoevring in Lymington to get fuel).

There was only a bit of swell (I'd say the sea state was slight to moderate perhaps), which got a bit steeper once into Christchurch bay and the race at St Albans was a little bit lumpy for a hundred yards or so. All in all, I think it was pretty benign and nothing like the forecasst.

We were offshore (in light of the swell), but not far enough so we got bounced a bit at St Albans. Should have gone further offshore perhaps, but then normally we are very tight inshore (dodging the pot markers) and perhaps that would have been better.

Rick
 
Re: Hmm

Rick, if you were there I won't argue, but the weather in Chichester certainly was F6 - 7, over night and into the middle morning, that came from the west and cleared from the west, just as forecast. The video footage from the RNLI showed a big swell too. Curious.
 
Re: What a plonker!

I make this post in fear of getting bombarded with the abuse that this guy is getting. I suppose the majority on this topic would say that I am being irresponsible as this July I take delivery of my first boat which is 45ft. I would consider myself to be inexperienced (infact rightly or wrongly I consider the same of many that you see out in the solent on a weekend – you only get experienced by attempting to do something). My experience to date is largely based on kind friends who have allowed me to be crew on their boats – which range in size from 30 to 36ft. I have done my dayskippers theory and practical and my yachtmaster theory. Last season was the first time that I have “skippered” a yacht without someone more experienced than I on it – again a friend kindly/foolishly allowed me the use of his 30ft yacht for about 8 weekends. The reason why I have opted to go for a 45 ft boat is that in 18mths or so I intend to liveaboard and go “bluewater cruising”. After advice from others doing the same (or that have done it) – I opted to go for a boat of the size and specification that is suitable for my longer term plans – the logic being I would spend the next 18mths getting experience and knowledge of the boat that I intend to do longer passages in. Is this sensible or would others have it as irresponsible ?

For what it is worth – I consider the RYA practical courses that some are raving about being essential for “certification” to be fundamentally flawed in their nature e.g doing a day skippers practical for 5 days in a force 1 – 2 does that really give you enough knowledge to “charter a boat in familiar coastal waters” ? – in my opinion no it does not. When I did my course, whilst it was stronger than that, I was really disappointed that it wasn’t blowing a gale when you are on board with a knowledgeable person to learn in the situations which are arguably more important than how to pick up a buoy undersail. So in the certification argument how far would one take it – i.e weather conditions, visibility conditions etc etc – before you know it the majority of businesses in the solent would disappear because there would be hardly anyone on the water and then some that have commented on this topic will be complaining about lack of supply and rising prices and that there are no decent pubs etc etc.
 
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